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France Bans Street Harassment, Approving Hefty Fines for Catcallers
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- vincvinc 8y agoText-only GDPR link: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=634866222&rid=1001 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=634866222&rid=1001
- maym86 8y agoSeems reasonable when the evidence is clear. This is too common. People should be able to walk around their own neighborhood and feel comfortable and safe. Awaiting replies from the free speech brigade to explain again why taking a reasonable small step to protect people is the end of the world.
- xtrapolate 8y agoNow let's get this down to earth. You're walking outside, it's dark, you get catcalled by a passerby. What's next? Do you pull out your phone and call the police? Try and take a picture of the person catcalling you? Where's your evidence? By the time you're done reaching for your pocket, that other person is long gone. That is to say, we now have a new law which is incredibly difficult to enforce, so what's the point exactly? Why don't we tackle problematic social phenomena through education instead?
- maym86 8y agoDid you watch the video in the article? If there's no evidence there won't be a fine.
- xarball 8y agoI don't think the video depicts any need for a new law. Harassment already has laws. But I think what happened in the video was clearly a step up from that, and would fall under criminal assault. Not sure what the woman in the video expects to get done by pushing for more change. Everybody at that restaurant stopped eating. A man in a white shirt grabs a chair to defend the woman. I counted at least 3-4 ready to jump in after him. All pedestrians stopped. There was more than enough evidence to perform a citizen's arrest (assuming that's legal in France?) To me this is an indication that the current laws are working fine. They may not be heaven, but they are effective at curbing any immediate danger as best can be afforded without treading on other public freedoms (i.e. the freedom to express oneself!)
- maym86 8y agoThe video depicts an example where no one needed to pull out their phone to catch the incident. That was the point.
- joelbluminator 8y agoI head stories of women being harassed daily on the same route to and from work. It's probably being done by the same guys. If the police really wanted to, of course they could stop this..just like sexual harassment in the workplace barely ever happens anymore.
- readittwice 8y agoI know women that have to endure that almost every day, but the police can't do anything about that. The police can't be everywhere and even if they would there is not much they can do if people approach women by saying something like "hey beautiful woman".
- dang 8y agoPlease don't wade into flamewar right off the bat, especially when a topic is inflammatory. We're trying for a bit better here than the usual internet sludge. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mamurphy 8y agoThe article seems to suggest that this only bans street harassment of women. >[now] the laws of the French republic forbid insulting, intimidating, threatening and following women in public spaces. I don't read French; I'd be interested to know if the law is gender-specific or not, and to know how they define harassment. Laws that ban harassment generally require a pattern of behavior. Catcalling is often a first--and only--contact. Is any contact that the target decides is unwelcome harassment? If you greet someone and smile, and they interpret your greeting or your smile as sinister, does this law make you a criminal?
- yzmtf2008 8y agoIt doesn’t take a pattern of behavior to establish that catcalling is harassment.
- speps 8y agoSource: http://www.france24.com/en/20180801-france-passes-bill-imposing-fines-sexual-harassment-street-child-rape-assault http://www.france24.com/en/20180801-france-passes-bill-impos... > The new law also allows for fines of 90-750 euros ($105-$876) for gender-based harassment on streets and public transportation. It bans sexual or sexist comments and behavior that is degrading, humiliating, intimidating hostile or offensive.
- mamurphy 8y ago>behavior that is... offensive Banning intimidating behavior has a strong argument for it. Banning overtly sexual comments at least has a clear line to it. But banning "offensive" behavior? I prefer the right to free speech over the right to not be offended.
- cm2187 8y agoNot the least because being offended is a blank check for anyone to define their own red line and impose them on others. And some people seem hyper sensitive...
- staticelf 8y agoThese kind of laws makes approaching people with a sexual interest to perhaps be considered as sexual harassment. That's why I have stopped approaching women, it's not worth the risk. When it's popular to write peoples names publicly on twitter without any evidence for example (metoo), then you know it has gone way to far. The truth is if people find you attractive, the chance is much lower that they will consider it harassment (even if it may be) and just let it slide. I am sure that these laws will just backfire on the very people it were designed to protect.
- joelbluminator 8y agoThere are certain settings where this is more appropriate: bars, clubs, social events. The streets - less so. No one will sue you if you politely start a conversation with a woman in a bar, that's not what this is about.
- staticelf 8y agoI understand that, but what I am saying is that it is what is going to be about as well. Why is it even common to think that is automatically harassment because you are starting a conversation with a woman in a street or grocery store?
- joelbluminator 8y agoGenerally, yelling things to women from a few meters is not starting a conversation. I wouldn't say it's automatically harassment to approach women in public areas but you should be very careful about how you are doing that and be ever more polite. Most women want to get from point A to point B and not be picked up.
- staticelf 8y agoI didn't say anything about any yelling. I don't know about you, but I don't expect to pick up the women I talk to even if I start the conversation out of a sexual interest.
- maeln 8y agoWe already had law against harassment. They are just very hard to enforce. This law is mainly a PR move. It is a very common thing in France to pass law that will almost never be used because they are impossible to enforce. They only purpose is for the gov to say "look, we did something !".
- Bertio 8y agoThere is also the normative effect of laws where they do influence the behavior of the majority.
- randyrand 8y ago*sometimes
- candiodari 8y agoYou mean in a country where police officers have gotten convicted for using violence against women for not going out with them ? Also officers have gotten convicted for intercepting phone calls of ex-lovers ? And, given the convictions, how many such officers got away with doing that ? Hundreds ? Thousands ? That's the government that's supposed to change that normative behavior. Or at least, that's the part of the government that actually interacts with the majority and enforces the laws.
- SpecialistEMT 8y agoPig apologist.
- opwieurposiu 8y agoThis law is just another racist way to fine and punish POC. Anyone who has been to paris knows the primary cat-callers are not white. I thought Le Pen lost the election?
- hw 8y agoWhat does having the law have to do with race? Regardless of race, cat-calling is sexual harassment and should be treated as such.
- randyrand 8y agoIt's only sexual harassment if it is unwanted. As an consequence of this, less sexually wanted races are disproportionally affected.
- Tehnix 8y agoSo it’s okay to catcall if you are not white? (Not commenting on my opinion of the law itself...)
- tajen 8y agoYou’ll notice they only have white people on their ads « Fixer du regard, c’est harceler » (=« Fixate/looking into the eyes for more than 7 seconds is harassing »). I don’t think this law will be enforced against « racailles » (=gang members). I think only white people will get fined. « Racailles » get away with drug dealing and beating up Asians, who would think they’d get —finally— be fined with harassment. Nap, won’t happen.
- joelbluminator 8y agoMaybe they should stop cat calling then...then everyone will be happy
- charlesism 8y agoNice try, but this is HN. Go back to Facebook where they're more susceptible to this sort of thing.
- blunte 8y agoA lot of commenters here obviously have not witnessed this or been a target. In pedestrian areas, sometimes the offender will walk with their target for a block or more, saying rude things, directly asking for a f++k, etc. And believe it or not, sometimes a driver of a car will slow to the speed of the pedestrian and one or more people in the car will harass the pedestrian in verbal sexual ways. Even if a law is not easily enforcible, at least if a cop happens to witness this they can step in and fine the offender. That just might start to have an impact on the problem. It's a real nasty situation, particularly for women, especially when they are walking alone (even in the middle of the day). Some of the offenders have no sense of civility.
- xarball 8y agoHow could you defend those accused of this if they were innocent, though? Someone might quite literally just want to start talking to someone without having any way of knowing where someone's head is at. I'm thinking particularly of more gray areas. Like outside of a nightclub. Or with a women who is just trying to cause trouble by baiting men (which is a REAL possible outcome of instituting oppressive laws like this!) Laws have to be clear about what is acceptable behavior and what isn't, and cannot be subject to interpretation. We may as well just ban all flirting between men and women if that's where this is headed, because this looks like another insanely evil marxist law designed to subvert our natural ways of dealing with social provocations, that mother nature has enshrined us with, and probably leading to more social imbalances than those even posed by original problem!
- growlist 8y agoI think the elephant in the room here is that this behaviour is probably not coming mainly from resident French, but rather, being kind, those that France needs to work harder to introduce to common standards of behaviour in France. An extreme leftist position might argue this law is an evil right wing law that hampers different cultures that are equally as valid as mainstream French culture.
- cam_l 8y agoThe reason you are being downvoted is that it is also not ok to harass women outside of a nightclub.. or in a nightclub.. or anywhere fucking else. If they are baiting, well perhaps this a pathological response to constant lifelong harassment. Perhaps not being harassed for sex from the time they are pre-pubescent will actually change the dynamic. If people get off on the give and take of sexually threatening roleplay in a public setting, perhaps they need to check themselves before worrying if that 'right' will be taken away. Law definitely does not have to be clear (show me a law that is black and white). Once again, the important thing to remember here, and the issue men seem to have a problem with, is that this kind of change does indeed shift the power dynamic. Suck it up, sweetheart!
- nickflood 8y agoMany comments here have concern about this being enforced inappropriately because it's hard to distinguish between an ok situation and a real harassment. I'd say for me it's real clear where the line goes: consent. If a person says you are not welcome or just doesn't react to you at all after a couple of sentences, just go on your way. If you fail to do so and continue to get in the person's way or head, then it's harassment plain and simple.
- randyrand 8y agoThe issue with that "rule" is that you can harass someone even if you stop as soon as you realize its unwanted. A cat call is the most obvious example of this, but there are many less obvious others.
- nickflood 8y agoA very good point! I was mostly addressing the crowds that didn't understand what this is all about at all. Frankly, once I understood what terror being a woman in a public space can sometimes be, I was baffled that it is allowed to happen by the modern society. To offset this crap, I always behave in the most politest way possible and don't even hold my gaze for too long just to avoid contributing to this. The issue really is that some men think that it's okay to lightly harass women on the street, so like many other laws, it would have tremendously benefitted from some kind of educational material aimed at the offenders which shows how and why this is not okay. Well, now that this comment is long anyway, I think that much of liberal legislation would be much better received if it was deployed along with some kind of education stuff which explains what the problem really is, refutes common misconceptions etc
- tomp 8y ago> like many other laws, it would have tremendously benefitted from some kind of educational material aimed at the offenders which shows how and why this is not okay. Does this actually work? Like, will car thievs just stop stealling cars, as soon as you explain to them that it’s actually not OK?
- readittwice 8y agoWhen judging this law please keep in mind that Paris (and some other cities in France) already have the problem of disappearing women from streets and bars in some districts/suburbs. There are various newspaper articles on this, just google it. I personally know women that complain about street harassment on their every day commute to/from work even during the day. Those people approach them with something similar to "hey beautiful woman" and walk next to them for a few meters. Those women feel obviously very insecure because you never know upfront whether they give up after a few meters or not. Maybe this law helps them, it's worth a try in my opinion. And to be quite frank: This problem is mostly with immigrants.
- charlesism 8y ago> to be quite frank: This problem is mostly with immigrants. Please take this stuff to Facebook.
- flashgordon 8y agoWow I'd love to see this done and enforced in India!!