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This is kind of a strange comment. I don't think a lot of HN folks have worked in last mile logistics, but $2/package is average to above average. Amazon typica

This is kind of a strange comment. I don't think a lot of HN folks have worked in last mile logistics, but $2/package is average to above average. Amazon typically pays around $1.50 for Prime packages and I would say it isn't just the upper middle class that is buying from Amazon at this point. If people don't pay for shipping, there will be a human cost. If people are willing to pay for some aspect of value-add (actually coming to your door, caring about retry attempts, caring about lost packages, caring about how well the people involved are treated) this would change fast. Anyone who tries to go slower than peak speed or do it ethically gets crushed by someone doing it faster or in a shadier way, because people refuse to pay for shipping.

danharaj 8y ago
> but $2/package is average to above average. Amazon typically pays around $1.50 for Prime packages That just means working for Amazon is even more abysmal. Last mile logistics is shitty to human beings period.
- bradly 8y ago
  I know absolutely nothing about last mile logistics, but it's strange to me that (at least in the U.S.) we literally have someone going to practically every single house and business 6 days a week (postal carrier), and yet this is still a problem. I would think leveraging the human already coming to house every day would be the most efficient?
  - selectodude 8y ago
    UPS made $5bn last year. As Jeff Bezos says, “your margin is my opportunity.” He’ll make a whole lot more though, UPS is unionized and widely regarded as a pretty good place to work. Better shut them down.
  - brd529 8y ago
    Look up FedEx SmartPost, UPS Mail Innovations, DHL eConmerce, etc. these are all companies who “work share” with USPS. They deliver the package to the post office and USPS leverages their existing network of mail carriers to do the “last mile” delivery. The problem with these services is that they are very slow. The hand-off at the post office adds a day. Additionally these are considered economy services without a delivery guarantee by the carriers so they will wait until they have a full trucks worth of these before sending them on a leg. Wal-Mart is trying to get to same day delivery and bringing everything to the local post office for them to deliver would add at least a day. Furthermore those USPS economies suffer a bit once packages exceed 1 lb. it’s often too big for a letter carrier to take on their route - so they’d be delivered through the priority mail network which is often a different driver than your daily mail man and does not deliver to every house every day.
    - losteric 8y ago
      Given that package delivery is where USPS can profit, I wonder why Amazon/Walmart don't lobby to modernize USPS so it can cover the use-cases - why not deliver multiple times per day? There's no greater economy of scale than "delivering everything to everyone". I mean, that's a rhetorical question. Obviously they'd both prefer to monopolize a for-profit alternative to USPS... but it seems short-sighted
      - tdfx 8y ago
        There's really no hope of modernizing USPS. The political cost of substantial investment into USPS is higher than the actual cost of capital. If they want to control the quality of their service, it can't involve USPS.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Can you provide a citation? My understanding is that the USPS is constrained by conservatives trying to break them financially by requiring pension funding requirements drastically beyond what is considered reasonable based on their workforce. Therefore, USPS could modernize when Congress is replaced with politicians not working on dismantling the institution through legislation. “Back in 2006, Congress imposed a huge and unprecedented mandate requiring that the Postal Service pre-fund future retiree health benefits for the next 75 years and do so within a decade – something no other public agency or private company is required to do.” “As a direct result of pre-funding, USPS has reached its $15 billion debt limit. In 2005, the Postal Service was debt free. Today, it holds $15 billion in debt – all of it traceable to pre-funding. By forcing the Postal Service to use all of its borrowing capacity making these annual payments, Congress has prevented it from investing in new infrastructure, products and services to better serve American homes and businesses.” http://www.deliveringforamerica.com/infographic-the-truth-about-postal-finances/ http://www.deliveringforamerica.com/infographic-the-truth-ab...
        ohazi 8y ago
        > when Congress is replaced with politicians not working on dismantling the institution So basically never?
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  I take it you never delivered newspapers as a kid?
- douglaswlance 8y ago
  Compared to what? You do realize that humans have toiled in misery, scraping by and fighting for their lives for 99.9999999% of our history right?
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    I think they are honestly baiting upvotes from HN's liberal audience. Everyone has to/should work and provide value for our society. I dont understand why package delivery is so much worse than factory life, sitting infront of a computer 60 hours a week, etc.. I chalk this up to a niche percentage of the population that complains regardless of the situation.
    - cafard 8y ago
      Is anyone saying that it is worse, or are commenters suggesting that that the pay and working conditions should be improved?
      - mkirklions 8y ago
        Weirdly enough, people are choosing to work there instead of >retail >Restaurant >outdoor/home I dont get it, but people are choosing that job instead of higher paying jobs in different conditions. I'm a big fan of letting employees decide rather than bystanders outside the industry make that judgement for them.
  - danharaj 8y ago
    That's too many decimal points if you were actually thinking critically. Is your best argument really "well they could be dying of cholera and starve all the time so it's not that bad"?
    - douglaswlance 8y ago
      Critical thought != precise thought. You can think critically while simultaneously using exaggerated figures for emphasis. Especially when the figure cannot be precise. The argument is that these people are choosing to do this. They can choose to spend their time however they please. They know the full terms of the offer, and they choose to accept. There are people in the world who would cross oceans and deserts just to be able to have the opportunity to accept a similar job. The poor in the USA live better than kings in other parts of the world.
PeterisP 8y ago
The point is that if $x/item is a reasonable cost for doing something in an industry, it's ridiculous to expect a comparable cost from workers who do something else, specialize in something else, and don't do it full-time on a sufficient scale to optimize their workday/workflow. It appears that Walmart for some reason thought that having their existing associates to do it "on the side" after their ordinary job will somehow be more efficient (or even just as efficient) than hiring people to actually do that (and just that) efficiently. Clearly this experience shows that it's not, and doing it in the way described in the article would reasonably cost much, much more than $2/package; and getting it done for "industry standard" prices would require doing it in the "industry standard" way.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

danharaj 8y ago

> but $2/package is average to above average. Amazon typically pays around $1.50 for Prime packages That just means working for Amazon is even more abysmal. Last mile logistics is shitty to human beings period.

bradly 8y ago
I know absolutely nothing about last mile logistics, but it's strange to me that (at least in the U.S.) we literally have someone going to practically every single house and business 6 days a week (postal carrier), and yet this is still a problem. I would think leveraging the human already coming to house every day would be the most efficient?
- selectodude 8y ago
  UPS made $5bn last year. As Jeff Bezos says, “your margin is my opportunity.” He’ll make a whole lot more though, UPS is unionized and widely regarded as a pretty good place to work. Better shut them down.
- brd529 8y ago
  Look up FedEx SmartPost, UPS Mail Innovations, DHL eConmerce, etc. these are all companies who “work share” with USPS. They deliver the package to the post office and USPS leverages their existing network of mail carriers to do the “last mile” delivery. The problem with these services is that they are very slow. The hand-off at the post office adds a day. Additionally these are considered economy services without a delivery guarantee by the carriers so they will wait until they have a full trucks worth of these before sending them on a leg. Wal-Mart is trying to get to same day delivery and bringing everything to the local post office for them to deliver would add at least a day. Furthermore those USPS economies suffer a bit once packages exceed 1 lb. it’s often too big for a letter carrier to take on their route - so they’d be delivered through the priority mail network which is often a different driver than your daily mail man and does not deliver to every house every day.
  - losteric 8y ago
    Given that package delivery is where USPS can profit, I wonder why Amazon/Walmart don't lobby to modernize USPS so it can cover the use-cases - why not deliver multiple times per day? There's no greater economy of scale than "delivering everything to everyone". I mean, that's a rhetorical question. Obviously they'd both prefer to monopolize a for-profit alternative to USPS... but it seems short-sighted
    - tdfx 8y ago
      There's really no hope of modernizing USPS. The political cost of substantial investment into USPS is higher than the actual cost of capital. If they want to control the quality of their service, it can't involve USPS.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Can you provide a citation? My understanding is that the USPS is constrained by conservatives trying to break them financially by requiring pension funding requirements drastically beyond what is considered reasonable based on their workforce. Therefore, USPS could modernize when Congress is replaced with politicians not working on dismantling the institution through legislation. “Back in 2006, Congress imposed a huge and unprecedented mandate requiring that the Postal Service pre-fund future retiree health benefits for the next 75 years and do so within a decade – something no other public agency or private company is required to do.” “As a direct result of pre-funding, USPS has reached its $15 billion debt limit. In 2005, the Postal Service was debt free. Today, it holds $15 billion in debt – all of it traceable to pre-funding. By forcing the Postal Service to use all of its borrowing capacity making these annual payments, Congress has prevented it from investing in new infrastructure, products and services to better serve American homes and businesses.” http://www.deliveringforamerica.com/infographic-the-truth-about-postal-finances/ http://www.deliveringforamerica.com/infographic-the-truth-ab...
        ohazi 8y ago
        > when Congress is replaced with politicians not working on dismantling the institution So basically never?
WillPostForFood 8y ago
I take it you never delivered newspapers as a kid?
douglaswlance 8y ago
Compared to what? You do realize that humans have toiled in misery, scraping by and fighting for their lives for 99.9999999% of our history right?
- mkirklions 8y ago
  I think they are honestly baiting upvotes from HN's liberal audience. Everyone has to/should work and provide value for our society. I dont understand why package delivery is so much worse than factory life, sitting infront of a computer 60 hours a week, etc.. I chalk this up to a niche percentage of the population that complains regardless of the situation.
  - cafard 8y ago
    Is anyone saying that it is worse, or are commenters suggesting that that the pay and working conditions should be improved?
    - mkirklions 8y ago
      Weirdly enough, people are choosing to work there instead of >retail >Restaurant >outdoor/home I dont get it, but people are choosing that job instead of higher paying jobs in different conditions. I'm a big fan of letting employees decide rather than bystanders outside the industry make that judgement for them.
- danharaj 8y ago
  That's too many decimal points if you were actually thinking critically. Is your best argument really "well they could be dying of cholera and starve all the time so it's not that bad"?
  - douglaswlance 8y ago
    Critical thought != precise thought. You can think critically while simultaneously using exaggerated figures for emphasis. Especially when the figure cannot be precise. The argument is that these people are choosing to do this. They can choose to spend their time however they please. They know the full terms of the offer, and they choose to accept. There are people in the world who would cross oceans and deserts just to be able to have the opportunity to accept a similar job. The poor in the USA live better than kings in other parts of the world.

PeterisP 8y ago

The point is that if $x/item is a reasonable cost for doing something in an industry, it's ridiculous to expect a comparable cost from workers who do something else, specialize in something else, and don't do it full-time on a sufficient scale to optimize their workday/workflow. It appears that Walmart for some reason thought that having their existing associates to do it "on the side" after their ordinary job will somehow be more efficient (or even just as efficient) than hiring people to actually do that (and just that) efficiently. Clearly this experience shows that it's not, and doing it in the way described in the article would reasonably cost much, much more than $2/package; and getting it done for "industry standard" prices would require doing it in the "industry standard" way.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]