5 ms·

"Abstinence from alcohol in midlife, long term abstinence, and decrease in consumption were associated with a significantly higher risk of dementia of 45%, 67%,

"Abstinence from alcohol in midlife, long term abstinence, and decrease in consumption were associated with a significantly higher risk of dementia of 45%, 67%, and 50%, respectively, compared with consumption of 1-14 units/week, but only among participants who reported abstinence from wine." I don't get that sentence. Doesn't abstinence from alcohol always imply abstinence from wine? Or is it saying that drinking 1-14 units/wk only lowers your risk compared to being abstinent if some of that consumption comes in the form of wine?

HillaryBriss 8y ago
yeah, that confuses me too. i was also surprised by the size of the effect. being an abstainer was associated with relatively large increased risks, as you highlight. and later it says "with every 7 unit/week increase, there was a significant 17% increase in dementia risk," which is quite a lot smaller than the effect from abstinence.
atwebb 8y ago
The next paragraph follows up a bit, the phrasing is odd but it helps clear up that the tenuous link is wine/wine components. >The most intriguing finding from this study was the significantly increased risk of dementia among abstainers, including long term abstainers and participants who became abstainers, and that association was only present in those who abstained from wine.
- kazinator 8y ago
  Doesn't clear up anything. A person who does not abstain from wine is not an alcohol abstainer. Among alcohol abstainers, there is no special category of those who abstain from wine; logically, they all must. A: "I don't play sports" B: "Which ones don't you play in particular?" A: "Tennis." B: "Ah too bad; the one I particularly don't play is soccer." A: "I guess we won't be enjoying our non-play of sports together then. Your avoidance of soccer requires the lack of a big field and complete absence of half a dozen other players so that a team is not accidentally formed; whereas my aversion toward tennis requires that there be no court or racquets."
  - saltcured 8y ago
    I am only guessing here, but they may refer to phrasing of a questionnaire. Remember, responses are not scientific facts that necessarily follow your assumed ontology. Some people may conversationally use "alcohol" as others might use "hard liquor" and answer differently than others who think "alcohol" includes yeasty breads...
  - ethbro 8y ago
    The paper was likely written for a target reader interested in understanding the experiment (and therefore willing to approach it in good faith), rather than minutely parse it to identify grammatical inconsistencies.
  - Izkata 8y ago
    Flipping "increased" to "decreased" because it's easier to understand, it says wine significantly decreases risk of dementia compared to abstainers, but that other alcohols do not decrease the risk of dementia. They probably chose the odd phrasing because the baseline is the same as wine-drinkers, so it's not actually a decrease, but an increase in the other groups.
  - CNJ7654 8y ago
    Why don't you like tennis?
  - rcfox 8y ago
    That interaction reads like some pretty good British comedy.
  - GuiA 8y ago
    Jean-Paul Sartre is sitting at a French cafe, revising his draft of Being and Nothingness. He says to the waitress, "I'd like a cup of coffee, please, with no cream." The waitress replies, "I'm sorry, Monsieur, but we're out of cream. How about with no milk?”
    - emmelaich 8y ago
      Descartes is sitting across the table. The waitress asks him if he would be having some wine. He replies. "I think, therefore I am."
e40 8y ago
I wonder if the decrease in consumption was really just a side effect of the onsetting dementia that was as yet undetectable?
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  That’s an interesting idea, could the onset of dementia make someone less sociable and hence drink less.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

HillaryBriss 8y ago

yeah, that confuses me too. i was also surprised by the size of the effect. being an abstainer was associated with relatively large increased risks, as you highlight. and later it says "with every 7 unit/week increase, there was a significant 17% increase in dementia risk," which is quite a lot smaller than the effect from abstinence.

atwebb 8y ago

The next paragraph follows up a bit, the phrasing is odd but it helps clear up that the tenuous link is wine/wine components. >The most intriguing finding from this study was the significantly increased risk of dementia among abstainers, including long term abstainers and participants who became abstainers, and that association was only present in those who abstained from wine.

kazinator 8y ago
Doesn't clear up anything. A person who does not abstain from wine is not an alcohol abstainer. Among alcohol abstainers, there is no special category of those who abstain from wine; logically, they all must. A: "I don't play sports" B: "Which ones don't you play in particular?" A: "Tennis." B: "Ah too bad; the one I particularly don't play is soccer." A: "I guess we won't be enjoying our non-play of sports together then. Your avoidance of soccer requires the lack of a big field and complete absence of half a dozen other players so that a team is not accidentally formed; whereas my aversion toward tennis requires that there be no court or racquets."
- saltcured 8y ago
  I am only guessing here, but they may refer to phrasing of a questionnaire. Remember, responses are not scientific facts that necessarily follow your assumed ontology. Some people may conversationally use "alcohol" as others might use "hard liquor" and answer differently than others who think "alcohol" includes yeasty breads...
- ethbro 8y ago
  The paper was likely written for a target reader interested in understanding the experiment (and therefore willing to approach it in good faith), rather than minutely parse it to identify grammatical inconsistencies.
- Izkata 8y ago
  Flipping "increased" to "decreased" because it's easier to understand, it says wine significantly decreases risk of dementia compared to abstainers, but that other alcohols do not decrease the risk of dementia. They probably chose the odd phrasing because the baseline is the same as wine-drinkers, so it's not actually a decrease, but an increase in the other groups.
- CNJ7654 8y ago
  Why don't you like tennis?
- rcfox 8y ago
  That interaction reads like some pretty good British comedy.
- GuiA 8y ago
  Jean-Paul Sartre is sitting at a French cafe, revising his draft of Being and Nothingness. He says to the waitress, "I'd like a cup of coffee, please, with no cream." The waitress replies, "I'm sorry, Monsieur, but we're out of cream. How about with no milk?”
  - emmelaich 8y ago
    Descartes is sitting across the table. The waitress asks him if he would be having some wine. He replies. "I think, therefore I am."

e40 8y ago

I wonder if the decrease in consumption was really just a side effect of the onsetting dementia that was as yet undetectable?

tonyedgecombe 8y ago
That’s an interesting idea, could the onset of dementia make someone less sociable and hence drink less.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]