9 ms·

I like to always highlight the difference between a technically correct statement and a public health and safety policy statement. A thing may be technically c

I like to always highlight the difference between a technically correct statement and a public health and safety policy statement. A thing may be technically correct, but for the health and safety of the public at large we need to adhere to a consistent policy with what we say in the public sphere. Mains voltage is dangerous and kills kills kills. Never connect anything to the mains power supply unless you are licensed to do so, or employ someone who is licensed to do so. Always assume a circuit is live unless you-personally have checked and locked out the breaker with your own personal lockout device that only you have the key to.

maxerickson 8y ago
You are supposed to have a license to plug a TV into the wall? I'm being silly, but you are going on about how the wording of statements matters.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Funny enough, if you've ever done a tradeshow at a venue that has union labor, they will literally make you fill out a request and wait for a licensed union electrician to come and plug your TV (or phone charger or anything with a plug). You will then receive a bill for their time. And if you plugged in your TV yourself, and they find out, you just unplug it immediately and wait for the licensed union electrician to come plug it in for you again.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    I hope you are not suggesting that that is in any way reasonable.
    - whatsstolat 8y ago
      Hold on... Show me your HN posting license.
  - HappyFapMachine 8y ago
    In my country, it's required by law for every employee to have a certificate even for plugging in a toaster. The training is easy though and serves mostly to prevent injuries.
    - ethbro 8y ago
      What do they teach you not to do?
      - ryandrake 8y ago
        Question ever-expanding bureaucracy?
    - jandrese 8y ago
      What does the training cover? "Do not rest your tongue on the plug as you insert it into the wall." I get that electricity is dangerous, but are there really functioning adults hired by a company that can't be trusted to plug in a simple appliance without a safety briefing first? It seems insulting to their intelligence. Or do they make everybody do this so the one or two absolute morons don't feel bad about being forced to take the "completely basic life skills" course before they're allowed to function at even a very low adult level?
  - organsnyder 8y ago
    That's not been my experience (in a previous life I did 5-6 shows a year, and was yelled at by union reps more than once for hand-carrying my own materials in). At the shows I did (which included venues like the Cobo Center, various downtown hotels, and other union-heavy shops), the union electrician would wire up an outlet for you, but you were then free to plug in what you wanted (as long as it was UL-listed).
  - ryanianian 8y ago
    I worked in a public university office for a while in college. Without involving the unions, we couldn't - move furniture that didn't have wheels (so no moving of desks, side-tables, or even some of the larger waiting-room-style chairs). We were allowed to install wheels on furniture ourselves and then move it however :) - hang pictures or anything on the wall (except when using that blue tacky stuff; you'd be surprised what you can hang with massive quantities of tacky) - plug in a new power-strip, surge-protector, or extension-cord (we quickly learned to get the big 20-outlet strips) - set up any kind of networking equipment, even if it was air-gapped from the university's network (we violated this all the time) - plug in anything that drew more than a certain number of amps (an amperage level that was quite close to what many tower desktop computers were drawing at the time; we always just risked that) Union workers were always prompt and polite when we'd ask them to do these things and they always had a "ya we know it's dumb" attitude about these requests. One time I saw the bill for the services: around $50 to plug in a surge-protector (that we provided) and $100 to nail a framed picture into the wall. The fine for not getting the union to do these jobs was something like 10x the cost of the labor iirc.
    - news_to_me 8y ago
      I'm curious how some unions devolve into this sort of behavior. The incentive is obvious, but I wonder if there's an organizational solution that would counter these outcomes. On the bright side, at least you know your electricians weren't being exploited :)
      - pavel_lishin 8y ago
        I'd wager that somewhere in their organizational past is a burned down building and an appliance connected to the mains with a wire hanger, at which point they decided that nothing is so fool-proof that a sufficient fool cannot be found.
      - mschuster91 8y ago
        > I'm curious how some unions devolve into this sort of behavior. Well, actually there's a logical reason why only the union workers were allowed to do the mentioned things (tl;dr: company/university wants to shield themselves from liability): - move furniture: shield the university from injury claims in case something goes wrong. For example, consider you moving a yuge chair around wearing flip-flops and you accidentally crush your toe during lifting. The university can now deny your claim as you were not supposed to have done this. In the crazy US system with its even crazier damage payouts, I wonder why this isn't commonplace. - hang stuff on walls: the older the building, the bigger the chance that you'll hit some live wire, a water pipe or whatever is buried in the wall. Plus, again, personal injury claim risk. - set up networking equipment: all it takes to bring the network to a grinding halt is accidentally connecting that router you planned to use for playing Counterstrike to the university network and whoops, where's that extra DHCP daemon coming from? - amperage limit for devices: older circuit breakers tend to get a bit... trigger happy with age. Which means what will work fine now may be too much (especially surge) load in a couple of years and these issues are tricky to debug. In addition, I have seen a wild variation of power cables and extension cords when it comes to their current capacity (e.g. there exist power cords with 3x 0.75mm2 wire, these are rated for 2.5A tops aka something around 550W - but what if the component uses 800W?). Having someone trained look at all involved components before plugging them in can and will prevent fires. Not only to check if they're safe from an amperage limit, but also to check if their isolation is broken, there are scarred areas from arcing, ...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Ha! Good one ;) Yes, it’s meant to say something like us unlicensed folk aren’t permitted to hardwire anything to the mains supply. In Australia you’re not even supposed to replace an existing power point outlet thingo unlicensed. If course, the hardware stores sell them, and we do. But there ya go.
  - taneq 8y ago
    > In Australia you’re not even supposed to replace an existing power point outlet thingo unlicensed. In fact you're not allowed to install any fixed wiring without an electrical license. It's ridiculous - technically you aren't even allowed to install Ethernet outlets in your own house because it counts as "fixed wiring". Other trades have just as bad a grip on legislature, you're technically not allowed to replace your own tap seals either. > Of course, the hardware stores sell them, and we do. But there ya go. Of course, in theory there's no difference between theory and practice... ;)
    - ethbro 8y ago
      As far as I know... there's no documentation of home power systems in the US. So the difference between "electrician installed" and "mysterious, unknown person installed" is only in the finished product.
      - ams6110 8y ago
        Indeed. It happens all the time that a homeowner does significant wiring projects in their own home. Everything you need is available at the local hardware store or Home Depot. Some do a good job. I've also seen things like lamp cord used in fixed wiring behind walls or in attics.
        13of40 8y ago
        I inherited some piece of furniture - I don't recall what - that my wife's ex had attached a florescent lamp to. He used a telephone cord for the 120v power connection.
- zaarn 8y ago
  I mean, in the US you should be careful atleast since the US plugs expose mains voltage where your fingers might be able to reach (UK and EU plugs are much better and make it mechanically impossible to touch the exposed copper before they make contact with mains). Generally, playing with voltages above 50V is something that should be done with care and a professional/adult present.
  - herf 8y ago
    TR plugs are required now in the US. We replaced ours because it looks a lot better than outlet covers.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      Interesting, is there some image of the TR plug, I couldn't find anything online?
      - mixmastamyk 8y ago
        Found this: https://www.esfi.org/resource/what-is-a-tamper-resistant-receptacle-538 https://www.esfi.org/resource/what-is-a-tamper-resistant-rec...
      - maxerickson 8y ago
        Search "Tamper-resistant electrical receptacles". They don't really look all that different, there's just a mechanism in the holes that prevents some foreign objects from being inserted.
        zaarn 8y ago
        Yeah that's not really better at all. You can get the same protection with 3$ child-protection covers here. The issue is exposed live voltage when you plug it in. Schuko and Europlugs generally don't allow this (even the flat plug is designed such that the contact aren't exposed anymore when they make contact)
    - 8y ago
- dang 8y ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    My comment is snarky, but it doesn't criticize a weaker interpretation of what they said, it points out a problem with the phrasing. The "I'm being silly" is an acknowledgement that the snark isn't really addressing the substance, the strongest plausible interpretation of "I'm being silly" is that I understood their meaning well enough.
    - dang 8y ago
      Fair enough on the "I'm being silly"—that does take the edge out of the comment and that's good. But I'm not sure it gets rid of it. Pointing out "problems with the phrasing" doesn't make for very substantive discussions. Also, snark is deprecated here. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
      - slededit 8y ago
        I disagree with you on the phrasing aspect for this specific case. When discussing an advertising message the phrasing is extremely important. Albeit the thread didn't invite substantive discussion on it because of the snark.

maxerickson 8y ago

You are supposed to have a license to plug a TV into the wall? I'm being silly, but you are going on about how the wording of statements matters.

jjeaff 8y ago
Funny enough, if you've ever done a tradeshow at a venue that has union labor, they will literally make you fill out a request and wait for a licensed union electrician to come and plug your TV (or phone charger or anything with a plug). You will then receive a bill for their time. And if you plugged in your TV yourself, and they find out, you just unplug it immediately and wait for the licensed union electrician to come plug it in for you again.
- megaman22 8y ago
  I hope you are not suggesting that that is in any way reasonable.
  - whatsstolat 8y ago
    Hold on... Show me your HN posting license.
- HappyFapMachine 8y ago
  In my country, it's required by law for every employee to have a certificate even for plugging in a toaster. The training is easy though and serves mostly to prevent injuries.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    What do they teach you not to do?
    - ryandrake 8y ago
      Question ever-expanding bureaucracy?
  - jandrese 8y ago
    What does the training cover? "Do not rest your tongue on the plug as you insert it into the wall." I get that electricity is dangerous, but are there really functioning adults hired by a company that can't be trusted to plug in a simple appliance without a safety briefing first? It seems insulting to their intelligence. Or do they make everybody do this so the one or two absolute morons don't feel bad about being forced to take the "completely basic life skills" course before they're allowed to function at even a very low adult level?
- organsnyder 8y ago
  That's not been my experience (in a previous life I did 5-6 shows a year, and was yelled at by union reps more than once for hand-carrying my own materials in). At the shows I did (which included venues like the Cobo Center, various downtown hotels, and other union-heavy shops), the union electrician would wire up an outlet for you, but you were then free to plug in what you wanted (as long as it was UL-listed).
- ryanianian 8y ago
  I worked in a public university office for a while in college. Without involving the unions, we couldn't - move furniture that didn't have wheels (so no moving of desks, side-tables, or even some of the larger waiting-room-style chairs). We were allowed to install wheels on furniture ourselves and then move it however :) - hang pictures or anything on the wall (except when using that blue tacky stuff; you'd be surprised what you can hang with massive quantities of tacky) - plug in a new power-strip, surge-protector, or extension-cord (we quickly learned to get the big 20-outlet strips) - set up any kind of networking equipment, even if it was air-gapped from the university's network (we violated this all the time) - plug in anything that drew more than a certain number of amps (an amperage level that was quite close to what many tower desktop computers were drawing at the time; we always just risked that) Union workers were always prompt and polite when we'd ask them to do these things and they always had a "ya we know it's dumb" attitude about these requests. One time I saw the bill for the services: around $50 to plug in a surge-protector (that we provided) and $100 to nail a framed picture into the wall. The fine for not getting the union to do these jobs was something like 10x the cost of the labor iirc.
  - news_to_me 8y ago
    I'm curious how some unions devolve into this sort of behavior. The incentive is obvious, but I wonder if there's an organizational solution that would counter these outcomes. On the bright side, at least you know your electricians weren't being exploited :)
    - pavel_lishin 8y ago
      I'd wager that somewhere in their organizational past is a burned down building and an appliance connected to the mains with a wire hanger, at which point they decided that nothing is so fool-proof that a sufficient fool cannot be found.
    - mschuster91 8y ago
      > I'm curious how some unions devolve into this sort of behavior. Well, actually there's a logical reason why only the union workers were allowed to do the mentioned things (tl;dr: company/university wants to shield themselves from liability): - move furniture: shield the university from injury claims in case something goes wrong. For example, consider you moving a yuge chair around wearing flip-flops and you accidentally crush your toe during lifting. The university can now deny your claim as you were not supposed to have done this. In the crazy US system with its even crazier damage payouts, I wonder why this isn't commonplace. - hang stuff on walls: the older the building, the bigger the chance that you'll hit some live wire, a water pipe or whatever is buried in the wall. Plus, again, personal injury claim risk. - set up networking equipment: all it takes to bring the network to a grinding halt is accidentally connecting that router you planned to use for playing Counterstrike to the university network and whoops, where's that extra DHCP daemon coming from? - amperage limit for devices: older circuit breakers tend to get a bit... trigger happy with age. Which means what will work fine now may be too much (especially surge) load in a couple of years and these issues are tricky to debug. In addition, I have seen a wild variation of power cables and extension cords when it comes to their current capacity (e.g. there exist power cords with 3x 0.75mm2 wire, these are rated for 2.5A tops aka something around 550W - but what if the component uses 800W?). Having someone trained look at all involved components before plugging them in can and will prevent fires. Not only to check if they're safe from an amperage limit, but also to check if their isolation is broken, there are scarred areas from arcing, ...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Ha! Good one ;) Yes, it’s meant to say something like us unlicensed folk aren’t permitted to hardwire anything to the mains supply. In Australia you’re not even supposed to replace an existing power point outlet thingo unlicensed. If course, the hardware stores sell them, and we do. But there ya go.
- taneq 8y ago
  > In Australia you’re not even supposed to replace an existing power point outlet thingo unlicensed. In fact you're not allowed to install any fixed wiring without an electrical license. It's ridiculous - technically you aren't even allowed to install Ethernet outlets in your own house because it counts as "fixed wiring". Other trades have just as bad a grip on legislature, you're technically not allowed to replace your own tap seals either. > Of course, the hardware stores sell them, and we do. But there ya go. Of course, in theory there's no difference between theory and practice... ;)
  - ethbro 8y ago
    As far as I know... there's no documentation of home power systems in the US. So the difference between "electrician installed" and "mysterious, unknown person installed" is only in the finished product.
    - ams6110 8y ago
      Indeed. It happens all the time that a homeowner does significant wiring projects in their own home. Everything you need is available at the local hardware store or Home Depot. Some do a good job. I've also seen things like lamp cord used in fixed wiring behind walls or in attics.
      - 13of40 8y ago
        I inherited some piece of furniture - I don't recall what - that my wife's ex had attached a florescent lamp to. He used a telephone cord for the 120v power connection.
zaarn 8y ago
I mean, in the US you should be careful atleast since the US plugs expose mains voltage where your fingers might be able to reach (UK and EU plugs are much better and make it mechanically impossible to touch the exposed copper before they make contact with mains). Generally, playing with voltages above 50V is something that should be done with care and a professional/adult present.
- herf 8y ago
  TR plugs are required now in the US. We replaced ours because it looks a lot better than outlet covers.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    Interesting, is there some image of the TR plug, I couldn't find anything online?
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      Found this: https://www.esfi.org/resource/what-is-a-tamper-resistant-receptacle-538 https://www.esfi.org/resource/what-is-a-tamper-resistant-rec...
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      Search "Tamper-resistant electrical receptacles". They don't really look all that different, there's just a mechanism in the holes that prevents some foreign objects from being inserted.
      - zaarn 8y ago
        Yeah that's not really better at all. You can get the same protection with 3$ child-protection covers here. The issue is exposed live voltage when you plug it in. Schuko and Europlugs generally don't allow this (even the flat plug is designed such that the contact aren't exposed anymore when they make contact)
  - 8y ago
dang 8y ago
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- maxerickson 8y ago
  My comment is snarky, but it doesn't criticize a weaker interpretation of what they said, it points out a problem with the phrasing. The "I'm being silly" is an acknowledgement that the snark isn't really addressing the substance, the strongest plausible interpretation of "I'm being silly" is that I understood their meaning well enough.
  - dang 8y ago
    Fair enough on the "I'm being silly"—that does take the edge out of the comment and that's good. But I'm not sure it gets rid of it. Pointing out "problems with the phrasing" doesn't make for very substantive discussions. Also, snark is deprecated here. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
    - slededit 8y ago
      I disagree with you on the phrasing aspect for this specific case. When discussing an advertising message the phrasing is extremely important. Albeit the thread didn't invite substantive discussion on it because of the snark.