3 ms·

How deep into conspiracy theory territory is positing an entire secret market of buyers and sellers of stolen artifacts? Because that seems much deeper than sim

How deep into conspiracy theory territory is positing an entire secret market of buyers and sellers of stolen artifacts? Because that seems much deeper than simply stealing jewels to make a political statement.

PurpleRamen 8y ago
Not much conspiracy there, as it's well known that such a market exists and that it has enough people who don't care about the source of aquiration. Such heists happen every some years.
- windows_tips 8y ago
  If it's known a black market exists, but the participants are not known, then things are ripe for conspiracy theories.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Not if Occam's razor (plus centuries of actual experience with catching fences -"professional" buyers of stolen goods- in such the black markets) simply puts the profit motive as the most possible explanation. It's as if people never heard of art and jewellery heists before...
    - windows_tips 8y ago
      Are you saying the buyers and sellers don't cooperate? Are we expected to believe that high-value buyers wouldn't authenticate the art they buy?
      - coldtea 8y ago
        I'm saying that cooperation between buyers and sellers is something that goes on since time immemorial not some big conspiracy with unknown motivations...
coldtea 8y ago
>How deep into conspiracy theory territory is positing an entire secret market of buyers and sellers of stolen artifacts? Well, we do know (1) that fences' [1] are a thing and have existed since time immemorial, (2) all kinds of stolen jewlery and art pieces found buyers all the time, and (3) the majority of heists and burglaries (as opposed to symbolic or terrorist acts) are simply motivated by the money. Very few thieves ever proceeded to made some political statement (e.g. the Bonnot gang). If it's intended as a "political statement", then they chose a very roundabout and ineffective way to go about it, not to mention one that could land them in jail. They could just as well storm the palace or the place where the goods were kept and put out some banners or make some (non felonious) noise without stealing anything (much less covertly). The "happening" statement in such cases has been done lots of times (has happened in the Luvre, in Notre Dam, in various palaces, in Italian museums, in official conferences, etc. Pussy Riot are a good late example). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal)
- windows_tips 8y ago
  > Very few thieves ever proceeded to made some political statement (e.g. the Bonnot gang). How do you view acts such as statue toppling/removal/theft[0][1][2]? [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firdos_Square_statue_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firdos_Square_statue_destructi... [1]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/8-now-charged-in-toppling-of-durham-n-c-confederate-statue/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/8-now-charged-in-toppling-of-du... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statues-monuments-destroyed.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statu...
  - coldtea 8y ago
    That's not theft.

PurpleRamen 8y ago

Not much conspiracy there, as it's well known that such a market exists and that it has enough people who don't care about the source of aquiration. Such heists happen every some years.

windows_tips 8y ago
If it's known a black market exists, but the participants are not known, then things are ripe for conspiracy theories.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Not if Occam's razor (plus centuries of actual experience with catching fences -"professional" buyers of stolen goods- in such the black markets) simply puts the profit motive as the most possible explanation. It's as if people never heard of art and jewellery heists before...
  - windows_tips 8y ago
    Are you saying the buyers and sellers don't cooperate? Are we expected to believe that high-value buyers wouldn't authenticate the art they buy?
    - coldtea 8y ago
      I'm saying that cooperation between buyers and sellers is something that goes on since time immemorial not some big conspiracy with unknown motivations...

coldtea 8y ago

>How deep into conspiracy theory territory is positing an entire secret market of buyers and sellers of stolen artifacts? Well, we do know (1) that fences' [1] are a thing and have existed since time immemorial, (2) all kinds of stolen jewlery and art pieces found buyers all the time, and (3) the majority of heists and burglaries (as opposed to symbolic or terrorist acts) are simply motivated by the money. Very few thieves ever proceeded to made some political statement (e.g. the Bonnot gang). If it's intended as a "political statement", then they chose a very roundabout and ineffective way to go about it, not to mention one that could land them in jail. They could just as well storm the palace or the place where the goods were kept and put out some banners or make some (non felonious) noise without stealing anything (much less covertly). The "happening" statement in such cases has been done lots of times (has happened in the Luvre, in Notre Dam, in various palaces, in Italian museums, in official conferences, etc. Pussy Riot are a good late example). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal)

windows_tips 8y ago
> Very few thieves ever proceeded to made some political statement (e.g. the Bonnot gang). How do you view acts such as statue toppling/removal/theft[0][1][2]? [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firdos_Square_statue_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firdos_Square_statue_destructi... [1]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/8-now-charged-in-toppling-of-durham-n-c-confederate-statue/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/8-now-charged-in-toppling-of-du... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statues-monuments-destroyed.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statu...
- coldtea 8y ago
  That's not theft.