4 ms·

Every once in a while a discussion of poverty comes up on HN and provokes typically two kinds of responses: The poor are deserving of their lot, lacking the nec

Every once in a while a discussion of poverty comes up on HN and provokes typically two kinds of responses: The poor are deserving of their lot, lacking the necessary wherewithal to get up off their asses and take responsibility for their lives; or, the poor are trapped by circumstances in a life not of their choosing and deserve whatever assistance we can give them to help them cope with their lot. This article tells the kind of unexpected story that, when you think about it, should have been expected all along. The poor, like the rich, and everyone in between, are not a homogeneous bunch of people that fit neatly into any predetermined category. This is a story of how a smart person learned how to be a smart poor person, learned, in effect, how to hack the life of poverty, and in a way that demands from me a certain amount of respect for the sheer skill and will involved, if not for the ethical character of all the actions such "hacking" entails; but it is also the story of a person who became disillusioned with his way of life. At that point, reading the story, considering how eloquently written, if how poorly edited, it was, I expected a tale of redemption, a tale of a man finding a new job as a writer, lifting himself up by his bootstraps, returning to the American dream, a tale that would end with a predictable heartfelt plea for understanding and compassion. Instead, the story ends with his being still depressed, but in a situation all the more unsure just for his proud refusal to play the system. I don't know that I have a point here, except to say that the story brings home more clearly than any other I have read on this matter that the poor are a many-colored, heterogeneous group, and stock responses, of whatever stamp, and of a type all too common on HN, are almost sure to fail to be answerable to the complexities of poverty.

kiba 16y ago
I recalled from my history class that the Georgia colony was originally founded for the "worthy" poor. So they made distinction between the kind of poor. There are some poor who deserve their lot in life and those who don't. However, I think being poor is not alway as simple as people like to make it. Sometime, growing up poor meant adopting ideas and values that make it much harder to rise out of poverty. I recalled a book that for example said that middle class women read much more to their children and emphasize effort over "rightness", ask questions to their children about what they read. The poor were more likely to be authoritarian in character, less likely to do the kind of educational reading that a middle class woman did, and so on. The effect is so large, that it even persists over generations. If you have poor parents that did everything in their power to educate you as an autodidact, than you and your family would rise out of poverty quick. However, it is probable that all our families face bottleneck. We aren't exactly optimized to make our children the most ambitious, smartest, and autodidact as we can. I myself have parents that didn't exactly encourage the kind of ambitious and curiosity that I have right now. It was my own innate and the computer that I used. During the time when I still used AOL, I would look up encyclopedia article and educate myself about the various topics that interests me. Eventually I would learn programming and a fair amount about certain obscure subjects, IP and innovation theory being one of them. Oddly enough, I recalled my past IQ to be around 90, below average. I tested myself at a few IQ site several weeks ago and it returns somewhat above average. I supposed I am not so smart as much as I am innately curious. Apart from the real and likely accurate probability that human memory are easily corrupted, my curiosity probably drive my IQ above average.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  Probably just due to age curving, my IQ scores have dropped by about 30-40 points over the past 10 years on the 'normal' tests. Oddly enough, I regain a lot of those points back if I take a 'harder' IQ test. I don't think my IQ has done me any real good except enable some lazy habits and some pretty rapid adaptation faculties. (Hauling ass and learning on the job) I'd rather have better habits and be better at using my time wisely, although that's steadily improving (as my IQ keeps dropping ;) )
jacquesm 16y ago
Your bit reminds me of the 'there are two kinds of people, those that divide people in to two kinds and those that don't'. The funny thing is that you implicitly treat HN in the same way, but there is plenty of nuance here to be found. The mass reactions are quite predictable though, the reactions typically are the opposite of the article in a kind of internet action vs reaction law. Usually people will respond to something they don't agree with in a stronger way than if they do agree.
guelo 16y ago
Sure, individuals are unique, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to make generalizations about groups of people. It's called social science and statistics. There is tons of data about the causes of poverty, generational poverty traps, how people escape poverty, etc. Of course when people argue these topics nobody bothers referring to academic literature, mainly because it's boring but also because people form strong opinions based on whichever political ideologies they're subscribed to and don't want to hear any conflicting data.
- robryan 16y ago
  That's one of the problems though, there are generalizations and data but in reality every case is different. So when you implement something based on statistics you will get people it helps but also get a lot more people who's specific situation doesn't allow them to benefit.
roel_v 16y ago
Re: the editing, is was most likely scanned from paper copies to be put online, and not checked. It would be interesting to see where the page breaks or other layout features were, based on those mistakes :) I think that the sentences that were repeated were in callouts, which the OCR software didn't account for.
danielnicollet 16y ago
I cannot agree more with you and I might add: I was born american overseas and have lived in the US only half my life time. I think this gives me a different perspective. Poverty and economic inequality in general is one of the most misunderstood phenomenon in american life I believe. You are quickly called socialist (which is like an insult, in this country only) if you dare say something different about it. So, kudos to John Brooke for a fantastic article which questions our usual perceptions of poverty.

kiba 16y ago

I recalled from my history class that the Georgia colony was originally founded for the "worthy" poor. So they made distinction between the kind of poor. There are some poor who deserve their lot in life and those who don't. However, I think being poor is not alway as simple as people like to make it. Sometime, growing up poor meant adopting ideas and values that make it much harder to rise out of poverty. I recalled a book that for example said that middle class women read much more to their children and emphasize effort over "rightness", ask questions to their children about what they read. The poor were more likely to be authoritarian in character, less likely to do the kind of educational reading that a middle class woman did, and so on. The effect is so large, that it even persists over generations. If you have poor parents that did everything in their power to educate you as an autodidact, than you and your family would rise out of poverty quick. However, it is probable that all our families face bottleneck. We aren't exactly optimized to make our children the most ambitious, smartest, and autodidact as we can. I myself have parents that didn't exactly encourage the kind of ambitious and curiosity that I have right now. It was my own innate and the computer that I used. During the time when I still used AOL, I would look up encyclopedia article and educate myself about the various topics that interests me. Eventually I would learn programming and a fair amount about certain obscure subjects, IP and innovation theory being one of them. Oddly enough, I recalled my past IQ to be around 90, below average. I tested myself at a few IQ site several weeks ago and it returns somewhat above average. I supposed I am not so smart as much as I am innately curious. Apart from the real and likely accurate probability that human memory are easily corrupted, my curiosity probably drive my IQ above average.

alnayyir 16y ago
Probably just due to age curving, my IQ scores have dropped by about 30-40 points over the past 10 years on the 'normal' tests. Oddly enough, I regain a lot of those points back if I take a 'harder' IQ test. I don't think my IQ has done me any real good except enable some lazy habits and some pretty rapid adaptation faculties. (Hauling ass and learning on the job) I'd rather have better habits and be better at using my time wisely, although that's steadily improving (as my IQ keeps dropping ;) )

jacquesm 16y ago

Your bit reminds me of the 'there are two kinds of people, those that divide people in to two kinds and those that don't'. The funny thing is that you implicitly treat HN in the same way, but there is plenty of nuance here to be found. The mass reactions are quite predictable though, the reactions typically are the opposite of the article in a kind of internet action vs reaction law. Usually people will respond to something they don't agree with in a stronger way than if they do agree.

guelo 16y ago

Sure, individuals are unique, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to make generalizations about groups of people. It's called social science and statistics. There is tons of data about the causes of poverty, generational poverty traps, how people escape poverty, etc. Of course when people argue these topics nobody bothers referring to academic literature, mainly because it's boring but also because people form strong opinions based on whichever political ideologies they're subscribed to and don't want to hear any conflicting data.

robryan 16y ago
That's one of the problems though, there are generalizations and data but in reality every case is different. So when you implement something based on statistics you will get people it helps but also get a lot more people who's specific situation doesn't allow them to benefit.

roel_v 16y ago

Re: the editing, is was most likely scanned from paper copies to be put online, and not checked. It would be interesting to see where the page breaks or other layout features were, based on those mistakes :) I think that the sentences that were repeated were in callouts, which the OCR software didn't account for.

danielnicollet 16y ago

I cannot agree more with you and I might add: I was born american overseas and have lived in the US only half my life time. I think this gives me a different perspective. Poverty and economic inequality in general is one of the most misunderstood phenomenon in american life I believe. You are quickly called socialist (which is like an insult, in this country only) if you dare say something different about it. So, kudos to John Brooke for a fantastic article which questions our usual perceptions of poverty.