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> That means we'll be discussing how many vacations should be paid for. If people don't have work to do then they are already, practically by definition, on va

> That means we'll be discussing how many vacations should be paid for. If people don't have work to do then they are already, practically by definition, on vacation. If you mean going on package tours and the like, there's no more reason to discuss those as a Basic Income "entitlement" than there is with social security payments.

moduspol 8y ago
Perhaps "travel" would have been a better word, but the point still stands. --Social security isn't intended to be a single monetary payment people will, by design, rely on for their entire lives. That's the key difference.-- EDIT: Actually it does do that for specific subsets of people (those with disabilities and similar), but it's a very limited subset as opposed to the entire population, and I think the difference is significant.
- DonaldFisk 8y ago
  Basic income proposals that stand any chance of being adopted are for it to replace other forms of government provided unearned income (unemployment benefit, old age pension), and are approximately revenue neutral, so those out of work and claiming benefits would receive the same amount, those working or earning private unearned income would on average see their tax bills rise by the same amount as the basic income they would now get, and those not working and not currently claiming any benefits would receive it, but at the same time there would be savings from simplifications of the benefits system.
  - moduspol 8y ago
    I've heard those theories and am quite skeptical, but they don't relate to my claims. My point is that even if everything you claim works out exactly as hoped, that will only be on day one. It is not the case that a growing majority of voters will simply be content with whatever is handed to them and be grateful. There will be ongoing debates about what that number should be, but it will almost never go down. And I've still seen no reasonable "exit plan" for how to transition away from a UBI society where some huge majority of people have, for decades or generations, been told they will never be working a day in their life.
    - insickness 8y ago
      Once implemented, it will be impossible to turn UBI off. In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say. And if we think people will be happier when handed money that allows them to not work, we are sadly delusional. No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society.
      - moduspol 8y ago
        I mostly agree, with a few caveats: > In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say. They won't even have to say that. The idea that the poorest among us have the financial literacy to be simply given money, budget appropriately, and spend with proper prioritization is empirically false. That's a big part of the value of food stamps, subsidized housing, Medicaid, and similar programs: They only apply to a very specific thing. You can't plan poorly and spend too much on your food stamps and be unable to come up with rent. With UBI replacing those programs, it will happen, so I expect the "you won't need those programs with UBI" premise to be dropped pretty early on. > No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society. I think people can be happy as long as they think they are contributing to society, even if they are actively making it worse. For a lot of them, I think there will be plenty of union power and political activism among this large group of bankrolled, but unemployed people with plenty of free time. Those people will be able to find happiness and meaning through activism.

moduspol 8y ago

Perhaps "travel" would have been a better word, but the point still stands. --Social security isn't intended to be a single monetary payment people will, by design, rely on for their entire lives. That's the key difference.-- EDIT: Actually it does do that for specific subsets of people (those with disabilities and similar), but it's a very limited subset as opposed to the entire population, and I think the difference is significant.

DonaldFisk 8y ago
Basic income proposals that stand any chance of being adopted are for it to replace other forms of government provided unearned income (unemployment benefit, old age pension), and are approximately revenue neutral, so those out of work and claiming benefits would receive the same amount, those working or earning private unearned income would on average see their tax bills rise by the same amount as the basic income they would now get, and those not working and not currently claiming any benefits would receive it, but at the same time there would be savings from simplifications of the benefits system.
- moduspol 8y ago
  I've heard those theories and am quite skeptical, but they don't relate to my claims. My point is that even if everything you claim works out exactly as hoped, that will only be on day one. It is not the case that a growing majority of voters will simply be content with whatever is handed to them and be grateful. There will be ongoing debates about what that number should be, but it will almost never go down. And I've still seen no reasonable "exit plan" for how to transition away from a UBI society where some huge majority of people have, for decades or generations, been told they will never be working a day in their life.
  - insickness 8y ago
    Once implemented, it will be impossible to turn UBI off. In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say. And if we think people will be happier when handed money that allows them to not work, we are sadly delusional. No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society.
    - moduspol 8y ago
      I mostly agree, with a few caveats: > In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say. They won't even have to say that. The idea that the poorest among us have the financial literacy to be simply given money, budget appropriately, and spend with proper prioritization is empirically false. That's a big part of the value of food stamps, subsidized housing, Medicaid, and similar programs: They only apply to a very specific thing. You can't plan poorly and spend too much on your food stamps and be unable to come up with rent. With UBI replacing those programs, it will happen, so I expect the "you won't need those programs with UBI" premise to be dropped pretty early on. > No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society. I think people can be happy as long as they think they are contributing to society, even if they are actively making it worse. For a lot of them, I think there will be plenty of union power and political activism among this large group of bankrolled, but unemployed people with plenty of free time. Those people will be able to find happiness and meaning through activism.