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Google's code of conduct[0] still has "don't be evil" in it. The very last paragraph/line in the document: > And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see somet

by kyrra 8y ago

Google's code of conduct[0] still has "don't be evil" in it. The very last paragraph/line in the document: > And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up! The big issue with a phrase like "don't be evil" is that it is ambiguous and highly depends on the understanding of the word "evil" to the individual that reads that line. Google at this point is 80k+ full-time-employees, that I can guarantee will read that phrase to mean different things. The newer code of conduct tries to codify what "evil" means, to lay a clearer picture for everyone what it means. That way it can't arbitrarily be applied for or against the company based on your an individual's beliefs of what that word means. [0] https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html

Erik816 8y ago
And the big issue with trying to codify broad moral statements is that you either devolve into restrictive legalism or you get ever better at interpreting specific rules to meet your desired outcomes. It's almost like the problem of human behavior is complex and can't be solved by a tech company with good intentions.
thinkingemote 8y ago
They also changed the implication from it applying to the company, to Googlers as individuals.
- drb91 8y ago
  ...which rather defeats the point of having any systemic ethical statement. People are gonna follow their own ethics anyway, google just now pretends to have a say when actually just not considering ethics at all.
wernercd 8y ago
> Google's code of conduct[0] still has "don't be evil" in it. The very last paragraph/line in the document: > > And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up! And get fired for doing so. http://nymag.com/selectall/2018/02/google-employee-fired-after-speaking-out-against-racism.html http://nymag.com/selectall/2018/02/google-employee-fired-aft...
- snvzz 8y ago
  Pretty much: Please speak up so that we can remove you.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  (Almost) all of us live in an at-will state. 出る釘は打たれる "The nail that sticks out gets the hammer." This really comes down to the lack of protections we individually have regarding: having a place to sleep, food, medical care, and more. No work means none of those.
- Torgo 8y ago
  To cite the XKCD comic, Tim was being an asshole and Google showed him the door.
3pt14159 8y ago
> The big issue with a phrase like "don't be evil" is that it is ambiguous and highly depends on the understanding of the word "evil" to the individual that reads that line. That's a feature, not a bug. If you think to yourself: "Self, is this truly evil? Are there no redeeming factors or are the consequences more heavily tilting to the negative than the positive?" And the answer comes back: "Yes this is truly evil. No, even from a consequentialist perspective you shouldn't do it." Then you should speak up. Even if only 1% of Google's employees see something from a certain light and speak up, that's enough! It doesn't mean they get final say, but it encourages a conversation where there might have been none. At the end of the day they can always quit in protest.
- philipov 8y ago
  Quitting in protest is overrated. It assumes a level of economic stability only available to the very wealthy. If you have a family to provide for and you live in SF, you ain't quitting nothing. Remember, quitters don't even get unemployment.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    It’s also ineffective if you think you’re having an economic effect on the company by quitting. For most tech companies big and small, there is a long line of competent people out the door hungry for the opportunity to do whatever you’re quitting over.
  - chibg10 8y ago
    I'm fairly certain most Googlers (as with other FAANGM employees) aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck and, even if they were, you can carry out a job search while you're still employed at Google. I would expect that most Googlers could find employment elsewhere, especially in the current job market. If we were talking about Walmart sales associates, I'd have more sympathy for your points.
  - rhymenoceros 8y ago
    Not to mention, for a lot of these companies that pay well, your position will be replaced by someone who is likely in a worse situation than you who could not afford to quit even if they wanted. Net result, an employee that is less likely to complain or leave when things start going off the rails. Sometimes (not always) it's better to try effecting change from the inside.
mtgx 8y ago
That line is a shadow of its former self (from a few months ago). The only reason it remained there is so that they can still claim that it's "there". Compare that to this: https://web.archive.org/web/20180421105327/https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180421105327/https://abc.xyz/i... If you're someone who likes to follow trends, then it should be clear to you that Google is trying to get rid of both such comments/values from the company, and will probably start purging the people that still believe like that inside the company, too, as the company starts working with authoritarian regimes and building weapons of death. Having ethical people inside the company will be like shooting itself in the foot, as it tries to move forward with these projects.
coldtea 8y ago
>Google at this point is 80k+ full-time-employees, that I can guarantee will read that phrase to mean different things. It's not like this matters. Those 80k+ employees are not the one's that take decisions anyway, their superiors are, and any major bad thing Google does is highlighted from way above. And it's not necessary for those employees to understand "don't be evil" to mean something particular. It's enough that they moral standards. If they do, they can see what's evil and what's not. If not, whatever the code of conduct was writing wouldn't matter.
kdl20kxkrk 8y ago
To paraphrase Paulo Freire: it’s legit to believe you are exactly right. And a requirement to allow others the same.

by kyrra 8y ago

Erik816 8y ago

And the big issue with trying to codify broad moral statements is that you either devolve into restrictive legalism or you get ever better at interpreting specific rules to meet your desired outcomes. It's almost like the problem of human behavior is complex and can't be solved by a tech company with good intentions.

thinkingemote 8y ago

They also changed the implication from it applying to the company, to Googlers as individuals.

drb91 8y ago
...which rather defeats the point of having any systemic ethical statement. People are gonna follow their own ethics anyway, google just now pretends to have a say when actually just not considering ethics at all.

wernercd 8y ago

> Google's code of conduct[0] still has "don't be evil" in it. The very last paragraph/line in the document: > > And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up! And get fired for doing so. http://nymag.com/selectall/2018/02/google-employee-fired-after-speaking-out-against-racism.html http://nymag.com/selectall/2018/02/google-employee-fired-aft...

snvzz 8y ago
Pretty much: Please speak up so that we can remove you.
crankylinuxuser 8y ago
(Almost) all of us live in an at-will state. 出る釘は打たれる "The nail that sticks out gets the hammer." This really comes down to the lack of protections we individually have regarding: having a place to sleep, food, medical care, and more. No work means none of those.
Torgo 8y ago
To cite the XKCD comic, Tim was being an asshole and Google showed him the door.

3pt14159 8y ago

> The big issue with a phrase like "don't be evil" is that it is ambiguous and highly depends on the understanding of the word "evil" to the individual that reads that line. That's a feature, not a bug. If you think to yourself: "Self, is this truly evil? Are there no redeeming factors or are the consequences more heavily tilting to the negative than the positive?" And the answer comes back: "Yes this is truly evil. No, even from a consequentialist perspective you shouldn't do it." Then you should speak up. Even if only 1% of Google's employees see something from a certain light and speak up, that's enough! It doesn't mean they get final say, but it encourages a conversation where there might have been none. At the end of the day they can always quit in protest.

philipov 8y ago
Quitting in protest is overrated. It assumes a level of economic stability only available to the very wealthy. If you have a family to provide for and you live in SF, you ain't quitting nothing. Remember, quitters don't even get unemployment.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  It’s also ineffective if you think you’re having an economic effect on the company by quitting. For most tech companies big and small, there is a long line of competent people out the door hungry for the opportunity to do whatever you’re quitting over.
- chibg10 8y ago
  I'm fairly certain most Googlers (as with other FAANGM employees) aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck and, even if they were, you can carry out a job search while you're still employed at Google. I would expect that most Googlers could find employment elsewhere, especially in the current job market. If we were talking about Walmart sales associates, I'd have more sympathy for your points.
- rhymenoceros 8y ago
  Not to mention, for a lot of these companies that pay well, your position will be replaced by someone who is likely in a worse situation than you who could not afford to quit even if they wanted. Net result, an employee that is less likely to complain or leave when things start going off the rails. Sometimes (not always) it's better to try effecting change from the inside.

mtgx 8y ago

That line is a shadow of its former self (from a few months ago). The only reason it remained there is so that they can still claim that it's "there". Compare that to this: https://web.archive.org/web/20180421105327/https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180421105327/https://abc.xyz/i... If you're someone who likes to follow trends, then it should be clear to you that Google is trying to get rid of both such comments/values from the company, and will probably start purging the people that still believe like that inside the company, too, as the company starts working with authoritarian regimes and building weapons of death. Having ethical people inside the company will be like shooting itself in the foot, as it tries to move forward with these projects.

coldtea 8y ago

>Google at this point is 80k+ full-time-employees, that I can guarantee will read that phrase to mean different things. It's not like this matters. Those 80k+ employees are not the one's that take decisions anyway, their superiors are, and any major bad thing Google does is highlighted from way above. And it's not necessary for those employees to understand "don't be evil" to mean something particular. It's enough that they moral standards. If they do, they can see what's evil and what's not. If not, whatever the code of conduct was writing wouldn't matter.

kdl20kxkrk 8y ago

To paraphrase Paulo Freire: it’s legit to believe you are exactly right. And a requirement to allow others the same.