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I'm having a hard time understanding how Google employees will shut down "immoral" project's for the US Dept of Defense programs like "Project Maven," yet hold

I'm having a hard time understanding how Google employees will shut down "immoral" project's for the US Dept of Defense programs like "Project Maven," yet hold their tongues in building an application that limits speech, aiding a repressive regime.

mc32 8y ago
Because it was less about principle and more about politics. If let’s say Bernie had won, this would not been raised as big issue.
panarky 8y ago
Where does the article say Google employees are holding their tongues?
- Mindwipe 8y ago
  Indeed, the fact that only a small amount of staff appear to have access to this project and one of them has leaked it for moral reasons suggests rather the opposite tbh.
  - mc32 8y ago
    The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Will this project be derailed? I’m betting not.
  - justinzollars 8y ago
    These employees are heroes. If you are reading this: Thank you for standing up for Human Rights.
    - lorenzorhoades 8y ago
      Why is software that can be used by the military to more effectively label drone targets a violation of human rights? Bias: I am in the Air Force.
      - justinzollars 8y ago
        I’m talking about leaking the censorship program.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - throwaway7441 8y ago
        It's arguably a violation of the human rights of the people who are being targeted. Not everyone who works at Google are American, and it's conceivable that someone contributing software to such a project could themselves become a drone target, depending on their nationality.
iamshs 8y ago
I am having a hard time understanding that he has Indian background and how come he is aloof to ramifications of censorship? He is actively pushing censorship, what government will not want to have a censored version of web? One version for Sikh, different one for Muslim and a different one for Hindu. Well done Sundar, even thinking about it. You will be beholden to local laws, and local laws will always change towards repressive side very easily if that means accomodating this project.
- xvector 8y ago
  Literally all of your comments in this thread are on Indians, India, or Hindus. You've commented multiple times on "the damaging impact this might have on India down the line", but pay no heed to the subject of this whole topic: the immediate damaging effects on Chinese citizens. As an Indian myself, I'm completely baffled by your tangents and you choosing to actively ignore the main issue at hand. This is not an issue because it might hurt India. This is an issue because it will hurt Chinese citizens.
  - iamshs 8y ago
    My comments are on Indian government, and not Indians or Hindus. Where have I insinuated anything about Hindus? It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, if Google goes ahead and implements it in China. This is what I am doing, bringing in another viewpoint which I didn't see being brought up beforehand. It is a valid viewpoint. Stop getting all nationalistic on me, especially when it comes to defending censorship. If you have meaningful rebuttal of any of my points I will consider it, otherwise your reply is bringing in nothing except strawman arguments. India has a history of censoring and also vilifying its minorities.
    - xvector 8y ago
      > It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, See, you're missing the point again. India is irrelevant to this discussion. It's tangential at best. Let's look at an example: mywacaday asked [1]: "Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China" And you responded [2]: "Because it will degrade democracy in countries like India." No. That's not the reason. That is a completely disjointed and bizarre tangent. India is irrelevant to the real issues at hand here, but in each comment you try to find a way to shoehorn it into the discussion. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17661610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17661610 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17662806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17662806
nitwit005 8y ago
You realize this is an article that exists because a Google employee leaked it to the press right?
- AndrewKemendo 8y ago
  The difference is significant however. The Google/Maven project just barely got started and people were resigning in protest. The Google/China project has... Teams of programmers and engineers creat[ing] a custom Android app, different versions of which have been named “Maotai” and “Longfei.” The app has already been demonstrated to the Chinese government; the finalized version could be launched in the next six to nine months and nobody is resigning or internally protesting. Not only that, Fei Fei Li set up an AI research shop in China for Google and was one of the most outspoken advocates of keeping Maven quiet, yet is loud about Google/China AI cooperation on literally exactly the same technology. So Google, employees and management, have clearly chosen a side here, even if it wasn't an intentional policy. And just to be excruciatingly clear, the work that Google is doing in China includes a heavy specific computer vision piece around object detection/recognition/segmentation, which will be used with the Yilong UAV systems (and others) as well as the Guangdong social experiments.

mc32 8y ago

Because it was less about principle and more about politics. If let’s say Bernie had won, this would not been raised as big issue.

panarky 8y ago

Where does the article say Google employees are holding their tongues?

Mindwipe 8y ago
Indeed, the fact that only a small amount of staff appear to have access to this project and one of them has leaked it for moral reasons suggests rather the opposite tbh.
- mc32 8y ago
  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Will this project be derailed? I’m betting not.
- justinzollars 8y ago
  These employees are heroes. If you are reading this: Thank you for standing up for Human Rights.
  - lorenzorhoades 8y ago
    Why is software that can be used by the military to more effectively label drone targets a violation of human rights? Bias: I am in the Air Force.
    - justinzollars 8y ago
      I’m talking about leaking the censorship program.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway7441 8y ago
      It's arguably a violation of the human rights of the people who are being targeted. Not everyone who works at Google are American, and it's conceivable that someone contributing software to such a project could themselves become a drone target, depending on their nationality.

iamshs 8y ago

I am having a hard time understanding that he has Indian background and how come he is aloof to ramifications of censorship? He is actively pushing censorship, what government will not want to have a censored version of web? One version for Sikh, different one for Muslim and a different one for Hindu. Well done Sundar, even thinking about it. You will be beholden to local laws, and local laws will always change towards repressive side very easily if that means accomodating this project.

xvector 8y ago
Literally all of your comments in this thread are on Indians, India, or Hindus. You've commented multiple times on "the damaging impact this might have on India down the line", but pay no heed to the subject of this whole topic: the immediate damaging effects on Chinese citizens. As an Indian myself, I'm completely baffled by your tangents and you choosing to actively ignore the main issue at hand. This is not an issue because it might hurt India. This is an issue because it will hurt Chinese citizens.
- iamshs 8y ago
  My comments are on Indian government, and not Indians or Hindus. Where have I insinuated anything about Hindus? It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, if Google goes ahead and implements it in China. This is what I am doing, bringing in another viewpoint which I didn't see being brought up beforehand. It is a valid viewpoint. Stop getting all nationalistic on me, especially when it comes to defending censorship. If you have meaningful rebuttal of any of my points I will consider it, otherwise your reply is bringing in nothing except strawman arguments. India has a history of censoring and also vilifying its minorities.
  - xvector 8y ago
    > It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, See, you're missing the point again. India is irrelevant to this discussion. It's tangential at best. Let's look at an example: mywacaday asked [1]: "Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China" And you responded [2]: "Because it will degrade democracy in countries like India." No. That's not the reason. That is a completely disjointed and bizarre tangent. India is irrelevant to the real issues at hand here, but in each comment you try to find a way to shoehorn it into the discussion. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17661610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17661610 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17662806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17662806

nitwit005 8y ago

You realize this is an article that exists because a Google employee leaked it to the press right?

AndrewKemendo 8y ago
The difference is significant however. The Google/Maven project just barely got started and people were resigning in protest. The Google/China project has... Teams of programmers and engineers creat[ing] a custom Android app, different versions of which have been named “Maotai” and “Longfei.” The app has already been demonstrated to the Chinese government; the finalized version could be launched in the next six to nine months and nobody is resigning or internally protesting. Not only that, Fei Fei Li set up an AI research shop in China for Google and was one of the most outspoken advocates of keeping Maven quiet, yet is loud about Google/China AI cooperation on literally exactly the same technology. So Google, employees and management, have clearly chosen a side here, even if it wasn't an intentional policy. And just to be excruciatingly clear, the work that Google is doing in China includes a heavy specific computer vision piece around object detection/recognition/segmentation, which will be used with the Yilong UAV systems (and others) as well as the Guangdong social experiments.