7 ms·

It may be controversial to say this as an American, but I believe Thomas Jefferson is easily the greatest candidate for founding father that deserves to be forg

• vonzeppelin 8y ago
  - Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence - He drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom - He served as the third President of the United States - United States Military Academy was established during his presidency - Jefferson doubled the size of the United States during his presidency - He made sure US presence was established in the Louisiana territory - President Jefferson abolished the slave trade - He made an important contribution to the Library of Congress - Thomas Jefferson founded the University of Virginia - He wrote a book titled Notes on the State of Virginia https://learnodo-newtonic.com/thomas-jefferson-accomplishments https://learnodo-newtonic.com/thomas-jefferson-accomplishmen...
  • MisterBastahrd 8y ago
    None of that rebuts how he lived his personal life. He decided that emancipation was not as important as keeping humans as slaves for labor and pleasure.
    • michaelcampbell 8y ago
      True, and how is it relevant? He did good, he did non good. As does everyone.
  • justinjlynn 8y ago
    - Historical figures are rarely fully known quantities, and are often more sketch than photograph. They are a gestalt of poorly recorded memory. - Historical figures are people and are capable of both horrible acts of cruelty and cowardice, just as much as they are simultaneously capable of exalted acts of kindness and insight. - Historical figures are not gods nor are they devils, they are, foremost, human; they, if they existed, were as complex as you or I. - It follows then that notable historical figures are just as flawed as the rest of us in every respect. - Notable historical figures worthy to be held to account for their failings as well as their successes. - In general, those with power have obtained it by taking it from others. Rarely, there are exceptions. - The stories of life are always abridged; minor characters are removed. Those silent partners are often where the balance of the equation of power lies. Watch for the shadows of the forgotten. - In evaluating the merit of an achievement, the means by which the ends are achieved often better reflect the toll the end exacts. - In evaluating the merit of morals and means against ends, one must understand the measures of the time and place in which the price was paid. Often, the price is still being paid; the interest on debt must be considered. - In determining if an action is worthy of praise now and worth repeating in the future, the measures of the time and place the action was committed must be weighed against the measures of the present. - Foremost, tread cautiously - you tread a path which no longer exists; indeed, the path may never have existed.
  • magoghm 8y ago
    Thomas Jefferson also: - Invented an encryption device: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_disk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_disk - Participated in writing the first draft of the "Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_the_Man_and_of_the_Citizen_of_1789 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_t...
• nashashmi 8y ago
  It said that you do not look at other cultures with your own set of lens. I guess it should also be said that you do not look at other time periods with your set of lens.
  • LanceH 8y ago
    The bad things he did were common to the era. The things he did that were uncommon to the era brought great change.
• camhenlin 8y ago
  Thomas Jefferson was a complicated person, like many people throughout history, but that doesn't mean we should forget about him. There is no need to scrub history for people we don't like or disagree with. Instead, we should shine a light on all of his negative aspects, while also celebrating things that he got right during his lifetime.
  • techopoly 8y ago
    Agreed. If we start erasing all the flawed people from history, we won't be left with much. Rather the question should be, what you can learn from his good and his bad qualities?
  • droopyEyelids 8y ago
    The idea that we should eliminate the unpleasant parts of our history is pretty fucking wild.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
• pwned1 8y ago
  Show me the perfectly consistent, virtuous historical figure, please.
  • jadedhacker 8y ago
    Why do we bother celebrating any of them? Mortals are mortal, they deserve to be evaluated based on what they do. I'm not sure what purpose, other than propagandistic, is served by looking at them through rose tinted glasses. In any case, it's not entirely clear that other than the (wonderful) Bill of Rights, the American Revolution was anything other than the elites over here wanting more control. 3/5 compromise, male property owning voters, indirect election of senators, it really sounds like the new aristocracy, with an Enlightenment tinged bent, was taking control. After all, the UK was being run mainly by Parliament, not by the King. Only popular struggle has made the US more democratic, direct election of senators, freeing the slaves, universal suffrage, but we see even that is being rolled back in the modern era with voter suppression, dark money, and the dark legacy of US foreign policy.
• mjfl 8y ago
  I am perfectly comfortable remembering and even admiring Thomas Jefferson as a great but flawed person, just like countless people from history. I don't think the things you listed are out of the ordinary for his day. I think it's a little bit Puritanical to erase an entire generation of people because they don't hold up to an updated code of morals. I also think to be Puritanical is to be hypocritical - who knows what you are doing today that people will damn you for in the future. It's almost certainly not what you think.
  • spicymaki 8y ago
    > I also think to be Puritanical is to be hypocritical - who knows what you are doing today that people will damn you for in the future. It's almost certainly not what you think. Thomas Jefferson certainly knew that slavery was unethical and contradictory to the values he was setting forth. He just did not have the will to act due to social pressure, greed, delusion, etc.
• ryandrake 8y ago
  Important to remember that in 200 years, people will look back at things you and I routinely do (and think nothing of) in horror and disgust. Culture changes and applying today’s lens to yesterday is problematic.
  • TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    It also goes the other way as well. The Mideast was at one time the center of learning and enlightenment in this world. But they headed in a direction of more and more extreme interpretations of their religion to the point where today you could literally face state mandated execution in many nations simply for discussing ideas and philosophical notions openly discussed and considered 1000 years ago in the region. Time may only move forward, but people and societies can, and do, go in both directions.
  • jadedhacker 8y ago
    The positive way to think about this is that it appears humanity's moral universe is expanding. I could name a long list of things that we do all day that we are going to be judged extremely harshly for, but it would derail the conversation.
    • dang 8y ago
      It looks like you've been using HN primarily for political battle. That's against the site guidelines, and we ban accounts that do this; we have to, because it destroys the intellectual curiosity that the site exists for. We've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• elif 8y ago
  It is worth it to consider that societal norms and attitudes change over time. In a hundred years time, do you think today's heros will be stripped of their accomplishments because they drove cars while the planet could have been saved, or they ate animals while they could have eaten plant-foods?
• TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  Like the old saying goes, we should forget all bad things in history because that way we'll never repeat them again...! Even beyond the absurdity of such notions, your statements paint a misleading picture. Jefferson, from the earliest days of the United States, worked to eliminate slavery. His initial draft of the declaration of independence overtly condemned slavery, though that was removed by the continental congress. Or see "Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves" [1] which was lobbied for by Jefferson for decades and passed immediately when he became president, the first opportunity it was legally possible. On the abolition of slavery itself Jefferson took a different approach. Slavery was awful, yet it is not difficult to foresee what would happen if all slaves were immediately emancipated. It would lead to violence from both slaves and former owners, and also would likely leave the slaves themselves in an extremely difficult situation. Slaves would have had minimal to no skills, no education, no connections, and then set free in a country where success is driven by merit somehow expected to just go and make a life for themselves. Instead of abrupt and complete abolition Jefferson proposed phasing out slavery. All slaves born after a certain date would be 'purchased' from their owners for a nominal fee by the government. The government then would handle their education, training, and then send them abroad to work as skilled independent freemen. The idea was to have a peaceful transition and give the former slaves the best opportunity of starting and creating a legacy of success for themselves. And, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps Jefferson was right. In the process of attempting to abruptly end slavery we ended up fighting a frightfully costly war with divides that remain to this day. And to this very day the descendents of slaves are still disproportionately struggling to find success in this nation. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_Prohibiting_Importation_of_Slaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_Prohibiting_Importation_of...
• canjobear 8y ago
  Does this justify forgetting, or awareness?
  • jadedhacker 8y ago
    It justifies critical awareness such as is happening here.
• LyndsySimon 8y ago
  While I strongly disagree with you, your comment is fading and I upvoted it. I lived a couple of miles from Monticello for about five years, and have read pretty much everything I could get my hands on about Jefferson. My opinion is that he's absolutely a man worthy of respect, remembrance, and study. He was not perfect; no one is. He was in many ways a man of his times, and you have to consider those times when considering his views. For instance, on the topic of slavery: Yes, he fathered children with Sally Hemings. Yes, those children were enslaved from birth and considered chattel. Yes, he maintained a public position of ambiguity on the topic of emancipation and a negative private opinion of the same. Some context around those facts: Sally Hemings was almost certainly Martha Jefferson's half-sister, and was of 3/4ths European ancestry. Her children were 7/8ths European, and all but one ultimately chose to move and pass as free whites. While Jefferson's relationship with Sally was certainly a scandal at the time and abhorrent to us today, it was not uncommon in his era. It did not begin until several years after his wife's death, when he took Sally with him to France - where slavery was illegal - where they conceived the first of their five probable children. According to Sally's daughter, Madison Hemings, Jefferson promised to free their children when they came of age. Again, it was a bit more complicated than that in practice, because it was illegal for a black person to live in Virginia more than one year after being freed. Sally was "given her time" upon Jefferson's death, which effectively meant that she was able to live as a free person and was protected from being captured and re-enslaved. One of their children "escaped" when she was about to come of age - Jefferson gave her $50, sent her to Philadelphia, and never pursued her. Again, this protected her somewhat from being captured and re-enslaved, as Jefferson continued to own her under the law. The others were freed at the end of his life. Jefferson likely saw his children's "apprenticeships" as a means of caring for them and providing for their futures without recognizing them as his own. As for his stance on emancipation, Jefferson believed that slavery was immoral, but that immediate manumission was impractical and would lead to serious social and political consequences, both for those who would have been freed and for the nation itself. His solution to this was to propose a "gradual emancipation" where enslaved people born after a certain date would be free and sent to an African colony. James Monroe, who was a close friend of Jefferson's throughout his life and lived nearby, served as President of the American Colonization Society, which in turn established Liberia. Monrovia, the capital of Liberia, is named for James Monroe due to his role in its establishment. So, in summary - Jefferson's views, while abhorrent to modern sensibilities, were actually quite progressive given the society in which he lived. He seems to have done his best to protect his "shadow family" with Hemings, and to set them up for success in the future.