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> Charter schools have inflated performance metrics. Often charter schools don't serve special needs students. More than that, charter schools bias towards enga

> Charter schools have inflated performance metrics. Often charter schools don't serve special needs students. More than that, charter schools bias towards engaged and interested parents. Because of policies like No Child Left Behind, it is really bad for local neighborhood schools to have all of their high performing students leave for charter schools. Thats an interesting way of saying that charter schools get better results.

cdman 8y ago
Yes, due to an unfair advantage. As per the text you quoted: > charter schools don't serve special needs students. More than that, charter schools bias towards engaged and interested parents. Because of policies like No Child Left Behind, it is really bad for local neighborhood schools to have all of their high performing students leave for charter schools.
- ryanx435 8y ago
  so if I'm an engaged and interested parent, and I want my child to succeed, looks like charter schools are the correct answer about where to send my kids.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
    1. No. Charter schools select the best students but that doesn't say that they're actually better at educating them than a normal public school. 2. You don't believe that kids should share an environment with the less-advantaged? Even if we said that your child may be more likely to 'succeed' when they are placed in an environment where almost no kids are materially wanting or have special needs - what kind of person are they going to be? Unfortunately it seems they are likely to grow up to be the same kind of person you are.
    - dang 8y ago
      We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines and ignoring our request to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
        What request to stop and what HN guideline?
        dang 8y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16220030 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16220030 Many guidelines, but start with the civility rule.
        frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
        I've actually just reread through the guidelines and don't see how I could be said to break many of them. I also don't believe I broke the civility rule. My comment is still substantive, remove the last sentence and it's just two good points and it's not something I would feel bad saying face-to-face. Maybe it's a bit snarky but HN loves snark and I see snark literally everywhere on this board - very rarely do I see you commenting below it. I believe you should unban my account, I've made plenty of quality contributions.
  - thedufer 8y ago
    Not necessarily. Charter schools do much better if you measure just output, but are frequently quite average once you control for their advantageous population.
    - mkaziz 8y ago
      So if I want my kids to be surrounded by other, smart(er) kids / kids with engaged parents, I should send them to charter schools?
      - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        It depends how much you weigh “Does the charter school actually teach my child better than a public school”(statistically, no, and they might even teach worse!) and also “do I care about exposing my child to people they’re different from”(ie. Avoiding them being stuck in a bubble) and also “am I unable to find another environment for intellectual pursuits”(clubs, extracurriculars, etc. when I was young there were definitely after-school schooling available for smart kids, and at school you can stay late for science teachers to teach you more science).
      - mercutio2 8y ago
        An individual parent’s incentives do tend to point in this direction, if their metric for success as a parent doesn’t include being exposed to children whose family’s aren’t as successful. But when taken to an extreme, this leads to exclusive areas and excluded people.
  - scilro 8y ago
    Could be in many cases. But the question of "where should I send _my_ kids" should be considered separately from "how should education in this country as a whole be structured." You have to distinguish between the macro and micro. Another example is college. If my nephew asked me whether he should go to college, I'd say, definitely do that, if you can afford it. But on a macro level, college in the US has kind of become scam and we have to do something about it.
    - gremlinsinc 8y ago
      I'm afraid college won't matter at all when my 1yr old graduates. Automation will have decimated many industries, what will be left is up in the air, and when he graduates will those jobs still be there? Unless in the future college is more of an extra-curricular boredom thing because post-scarcity society and all (wishful thinking).
jahnu 8y ago
It doesn't say that at all. "better results" should mean given a similar set of students. If you cherry-pick the inputs don't expect comparing outputs to be the same.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Given the set of high-ability students, it does seem that charter schools have better results. There's an attitude that everybody should do poorly together, and that's better than anybody succeeding. Like a bucket of crabs, each clawing at the others trying to get out and pulling them back in that keeps the poor, doing poorly. And well-meaning ivory-tower types fuel the culture with idealistic 'fairness' arguments.
  - Retric 8y ago
    The data does not back this up. Charter schools like elite colleges gain 90% of their reputation from rejecting average or below students. There is variation among school quality adjusting for incoming students, however that exists for both normal and charter schools with many charter schools preforming worse than expected and many public schools preforming far above expectations. However, if you want to support the value of some institution or approach it's really easy to ignore this fact and create biased research.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Citation? Its not about reputation (irrelevant) but accomplishment. And in the OP case, we're talking about one school helping one demographic. I wish this new school all the best luck in helping these kids.
      - Retric 8y ago
        the predominance of such studies in the United States does not show positive impacts on average for the charter school sector. https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vouchers/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vo... Recent research on statewide voucher programs in Louisiana and Indiana has found that public school students that received vouchers to attend private schools subsequently scored lower on reading and math tests compared to similar students that remained in public schools. https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vouchers/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vo... Or do you want the actual research papers?
toasterlovin 8y ago
But they get better results because they get better students.
- abakker 8y ago
  The real question is whether they get results that are as much better as they should be, since they are selecting students up front. I suspect that picking your inputs at a very young age is more about marketing and capturing money than it is about true ability to perform. Either that, or it is simply a follow on of the fact that parents with money, free time, and high levels of education tend to have students that do well in school. The school may make no difference at all if the kids learn a lot at home.

cdman 8y ago

Yes, due to an unfair advantage. As per the text you quoted: > charter schools don't serve special needs students. More than that, charter schools bias towards engaged and interested parents. Because of policies like No Child Left Behind, it is really bad for local neighborhood schools to have all of their high performing students leave for charter schools.

ryanx435 8y ago
so if I'm an engaged and interested parent, and I want my child to succeed, looks like charter schools are the correct answer about where to send my kids.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  1. No. Charter schools select the best students but that doesn't say that they're actually better at educating them than a normal public school. 2. You don't believe that kids should share an environment with the less-advantaged? Even if we said that your child may be more likely to 'succeed' when they are placed in an environment where almost no kids are materially wanting or have special needs - what kind of person are they going to be? Unfortunately it seems they are likely to grow up to be the same kind of person you are.
  - dang 8y ago
    We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines and ignoring our request to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
      What request to stop and what HN guideline?
      - dang 8y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16220030 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16220030 Many guidelines, but start with the civility rule.
        frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
        I've actually just reread through the guidelines and don't see how I could be said to break many of them. I also don't believe I broke the civility rule. My comment is still substantive, remove the last sentence and it's just two good points and it's not something I would feel bad saying face-to-face. Maybe it's a bit snarky but HN loves snark and I see snark literally everywhere on this board - very rarely do I see you commenting below it. I believe you should unban my account, I've made plenty of quality contributions.
- thedufer 8y ago
  Not necessarily. Charter schools do much better if you measure just output, but are frequently quite average once you control for their advantageous population.
  - mkaziz 8y ago
    So if I want my kids to be surrounded by other, smart(er) kids / kids with engaged parents, I should send them to charter schools?
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      It depends how much you weigh “Does the charter school actually teach my child better than a public school”(statistically, no, and they might even teach worse!) and also “do I care about exposing my child to people they’re different from”(ie. Avoiding them being stuck in a bubble) and also “am I unable to find another environment for intellectual pursuits”(clubs, extracurriculars, etc. when I was young there were definitely after-school schooling available for smart kids, and at school you can stay late for science teachers to teach you more science).
    - mercutio2 8y ago
      An individual parent’s incentives do tend to point in this direction, if their metric for success as a parent doesn’t include being exposed to children whose family’s aren’t as successful. But when taken to an extreme, this leads to exclusive areas and excluded people.
- scilro 8y ago
  Could be in many cases. But the question of "where should I send _my_ kids" should be considered separately from "how should education in this country as a whole be structured." You have to distinguish between the macro and micro. Another example is college. If my nephew asked me whether he should go to college, I'd say, definitely do that, if you can afford it. But on a macro level, college in the US has kind of become scam and we have to do something about it.
  - gremlinsinc 8y ago
    I'm afraid college won't matter at all when my 1yr old graduates. Automation will have decimated many industries, what will be left is up in the air, and when he graduates will those jobs still be there? Unless in the future college is more of an extra-curricular boredom thing because post-scarcity society and all (wishful thinking).

jahnu 8y ago

It doesn't say that at all. "better results" should mean given a similar set of students. If you cherry-pick the inputs don't expect comparing outputs to be the same.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Given the set of high-ability students, it does seem that charter schools have better results. There's an attitude that everybody should do poorly together, and that's better than anybody succeeding. Like a bucket of crabs, each clawing at the others trying to get out and pulling them back in that keeps the poor, doing poorly. And well-meaning ivory-tower types fuel the culture with idealistic 'fairness' arguments.
- Retric 8y ago
  The data does not back this up. Charter schools like elite colleges gain 90% of their reputation from rejecting average or below students. There is variation among school quality adjusting for incoming students, however that exists for both normal and charter schools with many charter schools preforming worse than expected and many public schools preforming far above expectations. However, if you want to support the value of some institution or approach it's really easy to ignore this fact and create biased research.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Citation? Its not about reputation (irrelevant) but accomplishment. And in the OP case, we're talking about one school helping one demographic. I wish this new school all the best luck in helping these kids.
    - Retric 8y ago
      the predominance of such studies in the United States does not show positive impacts on average for the charter school sector. https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vouchers/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vo... Recent research on statewide voucher programs in Louisiana and Indiana has found that public school students that received vouchers to attend private schools subsequently scored lower on reading and math tests compared to similar students that remained in public schools. https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vouchers/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vo... Or do you want the actual research papers?

toasterlovin 8y ago

But they get better results because they get better students.

abakker 8y ago
The real question is whether they get results that are as much better as they should be, since they are selecting students up front. I suspect that picking your inputs at a very young age is more about marketing and capturing money than it is about true ability to perform. Either that, or it is simply a follow on of the fact that parents with money, free time, and high levels of education tend to have students that do well in school. The school may make no difference at all if the kids learn a lot at home.