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I see this pattern a lot in history. Things are bad until something worse comes along. There's some quote about each country needing a reasonably strong enemy.

I see this pattern a lot in history. Things are bad until something worse comes along. There's some quote about each country needing a reasonably strong enemy. Without one, the country starts trying to find enemies and conflict within. Same thing might be happening in these mediations. By adding a bigger "enemy", the two parties probably quickly back down from trying to defend against to enemies and compromise with each other. It's a sad state of human nature but apparently works.

DanAndersen 8y ago
There's supposed to be some sort of Arabic proverb that's something along the lines of "Me against my brothers, me and my brothers against my cousins, me and my brother and my cousins against the world". It feels like a lot of attempted global social policy of the past 50 or so years has been trying to create a stronger consciousness of "humanity" as a thing, with our new enemies being abstract issues like poverty, hunger, climate change, drugs, inequality, etc. The "War on [...]" branding is part of that. Doesn't seem like it really gets the blood going as much. We'll probably have to have conquering aliens to fight against before that happens.
- everdev 8y ago
  Agreed. I think Ronald Reagan tried to evoke something like that during the cold war asking the lines of: imagine how well we'd get along if aliens discovered us You see this in political parties too. When one fights hard enough to take power, infighting usually divides it and weakens it enough for the next party to take power
- Chronos309 8y ago
  I wish people felt the same about going to space as I do. I think that if we were more knowledge focused as a species that we'd be racing to the stars which would mean an insanely different mentality than the 'tow the line' kind of thing I think we have nowadays.
  - beobab 8y ago
    I would very much like us to go to space.
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    Im a huge fan of learning about space, but sending human bodies seems impractical outside the novelty. Everything is unfathomably far away. There are lots of obstacles, near light speed travel is a necessity and we are nowhere near this ability, or that ability with a human undergoing the acceleration to light speed. EDIT: So I suppose I'm suggesting putting our resources toward those beneficial causes on earth is better use.
  - Viliam1234 8y ago
    The greatest enemy of us all is the Universe itself. It's the thing that is trying to kill each one of us individually, and all of us together, and to destroy everything we ever built or cared about, and then even tear apart the very atoms.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
I agree. I've noticed that too. That's why I sometimes joke, that we could really use the threat of impending alien invasion right about now - even if completely fabricated. This feels like the only way for the world to get its shit together. (And on the smaller scale, I think that the perceived decay and ennui in western countries stems from the fact that there's no unifying goal for the nation; everyone just fends for themselves.)
yannis7 8y ago
read "rally Americans against Russians[Democrats]/China[Republicans]"
nsomaru 8y ago
Happened in South Africa. Opposition parties were all united against apparently errant president Jacob Zuma of the ruling ANC. His fall removed the common enemy, and the discourse devolved to identity/race/class politics as the country polarises around the "land issue."[0] Non-white South Africans previously united around the common desire to liberate themselves from apartheid. With that enemy removed, society finds itself fracturing as the cracks in a democratic rainbow nation are strained. Obama gave a great speech where he touched on what it means to be a democrat (among other things) at the Nelson Mandela Centenary Lecture.[1] His analysis of the current state of affairs was sufficiently general that it applied both in the South African and Global contexts. Definitely a sober note in the political narrative after the ousting of the former pres. [0] https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/breaking-anc-will-support-constitutional-amendment-to-expropriate-land-without-compensation-20180731 https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/breaking-anc-will-su... [1] https://youtu.be/6cWYiJKCWdI?t=2h14m56s https://youtu.be/6cWYiJKCWdI?t=2h14m56s
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ravenstine 8y ago
> Same thing might be happening in these mediations. By adding a bigger "enemy", the two parties probably quickly back down from trying to defend against to enemies and compromise with each other. > It's a sad state of human nature but apparently works. I don't think that's sad at all. In fact, it's brilliant that function is built in to us. When aliens attack, do you really want the world powers to be wasting time with their chess game they've been playing since WWII? If aliens did attack, 99% of that nonsense would be put on hold overnight. Yeah, you'll probably still get some small groups who aren't going to play by those rules, but on the grand scheme of things, the human race still manages to make the whole group a priority even if it's out of convenience. However, I don't think your assessment that the mediator is made an enemy is correct. In fact, it's the exact opposite. If the mediator was an enemy, the path of least resistance is to ignore the mediator and for both negotiators to continue to rationalize and cement their positions. But if the mediator isn't an enemy, but simply a disappointed helper, it would follow that the negotiators are more likely to resolve their differences in order to correct the group imbalance, which is a natural tendency.
- awb 8y ago
  I think some of us fantasize about cooperation and kindness as the tools that accelerate growth and bring us together. However, it appears as in this study that conflict and competition are far better drivers.
- bytematic 8y ago
  I am almost not sure that the polarization in the US would be put on hold overnight

DanAndersen 8y ago

There's supposed to be some sort of Arabic proverb that's something along the lines of "Me against my brothers, me and my brothers against my cousins, me and my brother and my cousins against the world". It feels like a lot of attempted global social policy of the past 50 or so years has been trying to create a stronger consciousness of "humanity" as a thing, with our new enemies being abstract issues like poverty, hunger, climate change, drugs, inequality, etc. The "War on [...]" branding is part of that. Doesn't seem like it really gets the blood going as much. We'll probably have to have conquering aliens to fight against before that happens.

everdev 8y ago
Agreed. I think Ronald Reagan tried to evoke something like that during the cold war asking the lines of: imagine how well we'd get along if aliens discovered us You see this in political parties too. When one fights hard enough to take power, infighting usually divides it and weakens it enough for the next party to take power
Chronos309 8y ago
I wish people felt the same about going to space as I do. I think that if we were more knowledge focused as a species that we'd be racing to the stars which would mean an insanely different mentality than the 'tow the line' kind of thing I think we have nowadays.
- beobab 8y ago
  I would very much like us to go to space.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  Im a huge fan of learning about space, but sending human bodies seems impractical outside the novelty. Everything is unfathomably far away. There are lots of obstacles, near light speed travel is a necessity and we are nowhere near this ability, or that ability with a human undergoing the acceleration to light speed. EDIT: So I suppose I'm suggesting putting our resources toward those beneficial causes on earth is better use.
- Viliam1234 8y ago
  The greatest enemy of us all is the Universe itself. It's the thing that is trying to kill each one of us individually, and all of us together, and to destroy everything we ever built or cared about, and then even tear apart the very atoms.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

I agree. I've noticed that too. That's why I sometimes joke, that we could really use the threat of impending alien invasion right about now - even if completely fabricated. This feels like the only way for the world to get its shit together. (And on the smaller scale, I think that the perceived decay and ennui in western countries stems from the fact that there's no unifying goal for the nation; everyone just fends for themselves.)

yannis7 8y ago

read "rally Americans against Russians[Democrats]/China[Republicans]"

nsomaru 8y ago

Happened in South Africa. Opposition parties were all united against apparently errant president Jacob Zuma of the ruling ANC. His fall removed the common enemy, and the discourse devolved to identity/race/class politics as the country polarises around the "land issue."[0] Non-white South Africans previously united around the common desire to liberate themselves from apartheid. With that enemy removed, society finds itself fracturing as the cracks in a democratic rainbow nation are strained. Obama gave a great speech where he touched on what it means to be a democrat (among other things) at the Nelson Mandela Centenary Lecture.[1] His analysis of the current state of affairs was sufficiently general that it applied both in the South African and Global contexts. Definitely a sober note in the political narrative after the ousting of the former pres. [0] https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/breaking-anc-will-support-constitutional-amendment-to-expropriate-land-without-compensation-20180731 https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/breaking-anc-will-su... [1] https://youtu.be/6cWYiJKCWdI?t=2h14m56s https://youtu.be/6cWYiJKCWdI?t=2h14m56s

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ravenstine 8y ago

> Same thing might be happening in these mediations. By adding a bigger "enemy", the two parties probably quickly back down from trying to defend against to enemies and compromise with each other. > It's a sad state of human nature but apparently works. I don't think that's sad at all. In fact, it's brilliant that function is built in to us. When aliens attack, do you really want the world powers to be wasting time with their chess game they've been playing since WWII? If aliens did attack, 99% of that nonsense would be put on hold overnight. Yeah, you'll probably still get some small groups who aren't going to play by those rules, but on the grand scheme of things, the human race still manages to make the whole group a priority even if it's out of convenience. However, I don't think your assessment that the mediator is made an enemy is correct. In fact, it's the exact opposite. If the mediator was an enemy, the path of least resistance is to ignore the mediator and for both negotiators to continue to rationalize and cement their positions. But if the mediator isn't an enemy, but simply a disappointed helper, it would follow that the negotiators are more likely to resolve their differences in order to correct the group imbalance, which is a natural tendency.

awb 8y ago
I think some of us fantasize about cooperation and kindness as the tools that accelerate growth and bring us together. However, it appears as in this study that conflict and competition are far better drivers.
bytematic 8y ago
I am almost not sure that the polarization in the US would be put on hold overnight