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So while you are fiercely criticizing sites which apparently understand and leverage the reality of zero-marginal cost digital data, you assume that data caps a

So while you are fiercely criticizing sites which apparently understand and leverage the reality of zero-marginal cost digital data, you assume that data caps are a necessity in a digital world. Workers don't shovel extra connectivity into the towers when you go over your data cap. So why are you focusing on data flowing over the nearly-always-on connection you have through your data plan, rather than the bullshit terms you agreed to when you signed up for a data-capped plan in the first place? Edit: remove unnecessary word, clarification

fwip 8y ago
Data caps are like your city bus. You can buy a bulk number of rides per month at a discount, and everything over that is billed at a regular rate. The bus doesn't magically add more seats when you make extra trips on it, but it still costs more to take the bus three times a day than twice a week. Even though the marginal cost of your body on the bus is minimal, having the fee serves to reduce crowding (demand at that price point) as well as fund the infrastructure. Data caps are the same. Now, you can argue that data caps are surrounded by deliberately misleading marketing and that overage charges are unnecessarily steep. But you seem fundamentally opposed to the concept of data caps.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  Both of the public transit systems I use on a regular basis sell me monthly unlimited-use passes.
  - sixstringtheory 8y ago
    That’s nothing more than marketing. Do you ride more because it’s unlimited? When you get to your stop for your office or dinner or whatever, do you go back home and then back again before getting off? Do you go all the way to the end of the line to minimize your cost per mile, then walk back to your actual destination? Of course not, you use it as efficiently as possible to do the thing you used public transit to actually _get to_. Do you consider the money you spend for your unlimited pass as rent for housing or office space? Do you just stay on the bus all day, working on your laptop and holding meetings? Unlimited transit passes are similar to unlimited vacation plans: people normally need and use much less than 100% of the resource offered. People also don’t normally push 100% bandwidth 24/7 through their unlimited plans. If everyone decides to use their unlimited transit pass in this way, they will go away or increase in price accordingly.
    - krylon 8y ago
      I definitely use public transportation more often instead of walking or riding my bicycle than I would if I had to pay per ride.
      - sixstringtheory 8y ago
        That wasn’t my point though, you still only use it as much as you need it.
        krylon 8y ago
        That is true. Point taken.
    - ubernostrum 8y ago
      Of course not, you use it as efficiently as possible to do the thing you used public transit to actually _get to_. The comment I replied to claimed transit systems don't sell unlimited-ride passes. I was pointing out that some of them do. What you're arguing is they wouldn't have the capacity to handle it if every person bought such a pass and immediately ceased all activities other than riding transit 24/7, which may well be true, but is also a non sequitur. Though since you ask, it would be a bit difficult for me to "maximize" use of my Caltrain pass in the way you're suggesting, since going "all the way to the end of the line to minimize your cost per mile, then walk back to your actual destination" is not realistic -- the line is ~80 miles long.
      - fwip 8y ago
        I did not claim that, please read more carefully.
- jancsika 8y ago
  > Data caps are like your city bus. Hi fwip, I don't have any knowledge about the economics or logistics of city bus lines. I do understand something about Transfer Control Protocol, Javascript's event loop, and soft realtime performance in Linux. Can you make an analogy between data caps and any of those concepts so I can understand what you're getting at?
dTal 8y ago
The terms are not bullshit. The network does not have the capacity to service everyone at their maximum last-mile data rate, all the time. Bandwidth is a large, but finite resource. There are several ways of addressing this: -You can divide the total capacity up equally and give everyone dedicated connections that aren't very fat. Nobody likes this, and it's very inefficient because most people aren't using their full bandwidth most of the time. -You can charge by the byte, on top of the base fee, so that using the system more costs more. It's fair - pricing directly reflects resources consumed - but nobody likes the idea of being nickel-and-dimed whenever they click a link. -You can do the above, but include some large chunk of data (which is quite cheap) into the base fee, that most people won't go over. Call it a "cap". This works well. -You can promise "unlimited" data, but start sending nasty letters and/or slowing the connection to a crawl when they go over some prescribed "fair use" amount. This is a data cap in all but name. Basically, all-you-can-eat stuff is always sold on the basis that you will consume some reasonable amount, because no resource is infinite.

fwip 8y ago

Data caps are like your city bus. You can buy a bulk number of rides per month at a discount, and everything over that is billed at a regular rate. The bus doesn't magically add more seats when you make extra trips on it, but it still costs more to take the bus three times a day than twice a week. Even though the marginal cost of your body on the bus is minimal, having the fee serves to reduce crowding (demand at that price point) as well as fund the infrastructure. Data caps are the same. Now, you can argue that data caps are surrounded by deliberately misleading marketing and that overage charges are unnecessarily steep. But you seem fundamentally opposed to the concept of data caps.

ubernostrum 8y ago
Both of the public transit systems I use on a regular basis sell me monthly unlimited-use passes.
- sixstringtheory 8y ago
  That’s nothing more than marketing. Do you ride more because it’s unlimited? When you get to your stop for your office or dinner or whatever, do you go back home and then back again before getting off? Do you go all the way to the end of the line to minimize your cost per mile, then walk back to your actual destination? Of course not, you use it as efficiently as possible to do the thing you used public transit to actually _get to_. Do you consider the money you spend for your unlimited pass as rent for housing or office space? Do you just stay on the bus all day, working on your laptop and holding meetings? Unlimited transit passes are similar to unlimited vacation plans: people normally need and use much less than 100% of the resource offered. People also don’t normally push 100% bandwidth 24/7 through their unlimited plans. If everyone decides to use their unlimited transit pass in this way, they will go away or increase in price accordingly.
  - krylon 8y ago
    I definitely use public transportation more often instead of walking or riding my bicycle than I would if I had to pay per ride.
    - sixstringtheory 8y ago
      That wasn’t my point though, you still only use it as much as you need it.
      - krylon 8y ago
        That is true. Point taken.
  - ubernostrum 8y ago
    Of course not, you use it as efficiently as possible to do the thing you used public transit to actually _get to_. The comment I replied to claimed transit systems don't sell unlimited-ride passes. I was pointing out that some of them do. What you're arguing is they wouldn't have the capacity to handle it if every person bought such a pass and immediately ceased all activities other than riding transit 24/7, which may well be true, but is also a non sequitur. Though since you ask, it would be a bit difficult for me to "maximize" use of my Caltrain pass in the way you're suggesting, since going "all the way to the end of the line to minimize your cost per mile, then walk back to your actual destination" is not realistic -- the line is ~80 miles long.
    - fwip 8y ago
      I did not claim that, please read more carefully.
jancsika 8y ago
> Data caps are like your city bus. Hi fwip, I don't have any knowledge about the economics or logistics of city bus lines. I do understand something about Transfer Control Protocol, Javascript's event loop, and soft realtime performance in Linux. Can you make an analogy between data caps and any of those concepts so I can understand what you're getting at?

dTal 8y ago

The terms are not bullshit. The network does not have the capacity to service everyone at their maximum last-mile data rate, all the time. Bandwidth is a large, but finite resource. There are several ways of addressing this: -You can divide the total capacity up equally and give everyone dedicated connections that aren't very fat. Nobody likes this, and it's very inefficient because most people aren't using their full bandwidth most of the time. -You can charge by the byte, on top of the base fee, so that using the system more costs more. It's fair - pricing directly reflects resources consumed - but nobody likes the idea of being nickel-and-dimed whenever they click a link. -You can do the above, but include some large chunk of data (which is quite cheap) into the base fee, that most people won't go over. Call it a "cap". This works well. -You can promise "unlimited" data, but start sending nasty letters and/or slowing the connection to a crawl when they go over some prescribed "fair use" amount. This is a data cap in all but name. Basically, all-you-can-eat stuff is always sold on the basis that you will consume some reasonable amount, because no resource is infinite.