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>I put it like this: I have been running since I was about a year old. Almost 40 years! But I cannot for the life of me run a marathon. I am not physically capa

>I put it like this: I have been running since I was about a year old. Almost 40 years! But I cannot for the life of me run a marathon. I am not physically capable of it, even though I can run a few miles in a row. Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not. And yes, you can write a book. Whether it gets published or not is another story. I don't understand why someone whose job it is to find the next best selling novel would write a post like this. It reeks of something a literary-agent/failed writer in Brooklyn would say...

alaskamiller 8y ago
Yes, you can write down a thought. Whether that gets to be a sentence or not is another story. Yes, you can write out an idea. Whether that gets to be a page or not is another story. Yes, you can write out a book. Whether that gets published or not is another story. Yes, you can self publish a book. Whether that gets people to care or not is another story. Yes, you can spread your ideas to others. Whether that lasts or not is another story. Yes, you can live on through your words. Whether that's going to be good or bad on your name is another story. But through it all, all that matters is what you choose to self identify as. Whether you survive, benefit, or take over the industry built up before you or by others, is another story.
bartread 8y ago
Agreed. I could run a marathon if I put in the effort. The reason I "can't" is truthfully that I can't be arsed. If you want to run a marathon what you're saying is that you're happy for training for that marathon to take over your life for, probably, about a year, and I'm not motivated to do that. With that being said Eddie Izzard, with little training, ran 43 marathons in 51 days. He didn't break any records or win any medals, which I suppose is roughly analogous to getting a book published, but he did do it, over and over again, which is arguably writing the damn book. All of this suggests that I could probably run a marathon right now if I really felt like it. Fortunately (I'll say it again) I can't be arsed. Same goes for writing the book, because nothing inspires me enough to write an entire book. But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years.
- paulpauper 8y ago
  But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years. It depends on the genre and if it's fiction or non-fiction. Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect. It's not like writing 300 300-word blog posts.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect. Ever read Dan Brown?
    - Skunkleton 8y ago
      Renowned author Dan Brown
    - zbentley 8y ago
      That isn't a counterargument. Regardless of whether or not you think someone's writing is good, to your taste, or nuanced, there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves (or e-reader equivalent). It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves Is there? The general public can be sold any kind of crap that takes minimal effort -- and in the same way, don't buy masterpieces that take tremendous effort and skill to create. >It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy. This isn't an argument on actual writing skill though. It's like you measure a new category like "skill of writing best-selling stuff" that's not necessarily connected to the skill of writing itself -- just to the degree of sales. But one can sell bad stuff or skilless stuff too. Sales don't show anything more than a skill in sales themselves.
paulpauper 8y ago
the reason why some ppl cannot run well is due to lactic acid buildup and VO2 max level. This means some people will cramp up and get exhausted no matter how hard they train or even if they lose weight. Similarly, with regard to writing, some people are simply not smart enough. If you didn't get a near-perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT, maybe fiction writing is not for you (but non-fiction is always a possibly).
- dasil003 8y ago
  Performance on standardized testing is not a good measure of writing ability. It mostly has to do with hoop-jumping, a little bit to do with ability and nothing to do with motivation. Writing a novel is exactly the opposite: it requires a lot of motivation and a little bit of ability.
  - paulpauper 8y ago
    I would posit that the vast majority of fiction writers test well, but very few people who test well become writers.
- ska 8y ago
  The overwhelming majority of people are capable of running a marathon distance, even if at a slow pace. Not perhaps today, but by working up to it in a very achievable way. Similarly, the overwhelming majority can produce a book length manuscript, even if it isn't particularly remarkable. Again, they may need to work up to it. In this, near-perfect verbal SAT is pretty much irrelevant.
  - paulpauper 8y ago
    But I mean a good marathon time, and getting a book accepted by a publisher, in which there is an advance and royalties (not self-publishing). If by publishing you mean Amazon, then yeah, anyone can do that. Even robots can. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-kindle-spam/spam-clogging-amazons-kindle-self-publishing-idUSTRE75F68620110616 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-kindle-spam/spam-c...
csbrooks 8y ago
So then, you agree with the last paragraph of the article?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
saulrh 8y ago
Tell that to my knees. I'm mostly fine walking around. I can even do short flights of stairs. In fact, up until a few years ago they only bothered me when I sat in a really unergonomic chair for a while. Then someone convinced me to try this "couch to 5k" thing, and said that literally anyone could do it, and that I liked like I weighed maybe half as much as people that'd actually followed the timetable and gone from couch to 5k. Fast forward two months. The doctor says "stay off your feet and see if it gets better". They haven't started feeling better. It's been almost three years. I understand the viewpoint you're trying to hold, and I sympathize. Knowing there are things you can't do really sucks. Especially when you try and fail at something you really wanted, in Brooklyn or otherwise. Unfortunately, you're being a little bit insensitive, verging on offensive. "Just put down the crutches and walk". "Just stop being depressed and be happy". "Just focus". "Just try harder". "Just stop telling yourself you're incapable".
- dvtrn 8y ago
  Tell that to my knees Almost came here with this exact same comment. Absolutely not amount of motivation or feel good thinking about my own capabilities and willingness to 'do the damn thing' can surmount the sheer agony and pain I feel after a 2 mile run (because that's the most I can bear to stand) after years of jumping out of airplanes for a living (US Military) over 12 years. Ever have your knee shattered to pieces and fracture a femur after having a chute partially open and hitting the ground at 6ft/sec? Lemme tell you something: it's horrifying. You know the phrase "blinding pain"? It's a kind of pain that's so severe your vision literally blurs. You can see things, you can make out shapes, but your brain is so focused on that pain that vision rides shotgun for a bit. It's a level of pain that can (and has) induced vomiting and loss of consciousness when I so much as step the wrong way off a curb. Don't tell me "you can do it, just put your mind to it" when my mind doesn't even have the bandwidth to register vision. There is NO amount of "you can do it" motivational, go-getter mentality that will convince me to push through that kind of pain. Absolutely, positively and without any hesitation on the topic at hand: N-O-N-E. Heck, I stood up once to go get a cup of coffee, turned, stepped in an awkward way and turned my knee and immediately fell over in tears. So when someone says they can't run a marathon, maybe leave it at that-they know what they're capable of better than you do.
jdietrich 8y ago
>Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not. Eeesh. Any able-bodied person can walk a marathon, given sufficient motivation. You might be able to run parts of it, but you can't run a marathon through sheer force of will if you haven't done the training. A book is technically just a bunch of bound pages, so anyone can write one in the loosest sense of the word. I can just type the word "beige" 80,000 times and call it a day. Writing a book that someone will actually read past the first chapter requires a certain level of skill. The author isn't telling people not to try - his closing paragraph makes that clear - but he's warning people of the amount of work and practice involved in writing something that people want to read. To quote the great Ronnie Coleman, "everybody wanna to be a bodybuilder, but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight". The number of people who like the idea of being an author is vastly greater than the number of people willing to learn how to write well. If you enjoy the process of writing, then by all means write for your own pleasure. If you harbour dreams of being the next J.K. Rowling, you're likely to be sorely disappointed.
- ALittleLight 8y ago
  I think "if you haven't done the training" is the operative phrase. Similarly nobody could write a novel if they hadn't learned to write, or read enough, etc. If a healthy person wants to run a marathon they will be able to by a process of training. The original metaphor is a bit off. Anyone who puts in the effort could write fifty thousand words on the same theme or plot. Likewise anyone could complete a marathon with enough training and effort. A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it. While everyone can do the amateur version of these tasks not everyone can do the professional certain.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    >A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it. It's not merely a case of writing something that someone would pay to read, but writing something that someone would read at all. That's a considerably lower hurdle, but one that many authors never vault. Every day, the slush piles of publishers swell with lovingly-crafted novels that will, in all likelihood, never be read by anyone. The parallel I might draw is with a singer so dreadfully tone deaf that their neighbours lodge a complaint, or a comedian so bad that they are booed off stage at an open-mic night. Most first-time novelists are precisely that awful - their work is not merely of insufficient quality to attract a paying audience, but actively repellent. Few budding authors are prepared for that level of disappointment.
ryan-allen 8y ago
In the greater scheme of things, as long as you can get it self-published and archived somewhere meaningful (which is not particular difficult as far as I know), maybe 300 years from now when you're dead and buried maybe your audience will find you. A number of famous composers were not 'successful' in their time, same with painters, same with some writers (A Confederacy of Dunces comes to mind), later after their death they gained acclaim. I think the mere act of creation and distribution of art is the goal in itself, and with technology you can keep it around for a long time. To say something isn't popular doesn't mean it's not good. In 200 years conservatories of music are not going to be talking about Taylor Swift despite her engineered success, who knows who they'll be talking about!

alaskamiller 8y ago

Yes, you can write down a thought. Whether that gets to be a sentence or not is another story. Yes, you can write out an idea. Whether that gets to be a page or not is another story. Yes, you can write out a book. Whether that gets published or not is another story. Yes, you can self publish a book. Whether that gets people to care or not is another story. Yes, you can spread your ideas to others. Whether that lasts or not is another story. Yes, you can live on through your words. Whether that's going to be good or bad on your name is another story. But through it all, all that matters is what you choose to self identify as. Whether you survive, benefit, or take over the industry built up before you or by others, is another story.

bartread 8y ago

Agreed. I could run a marathon if I put in the effort. The reason I "can't" is truthfully that I can't be arsed. If you want to run a marathon what you're saying is that you're happy for training for that marathon to take over your life for, probably, about a year, and I'm not motivated to do that. With that being said Eddie Izzard, with little training, ran 43 marathons in 51 days. He didn't break any records or win any medals, which I suppose is roughly analogous to getting a book published, but he did do it, over and over again, which is arguably writing the damn book. All of this suggests that I could probably run a marathon right now if I really felt like it. Fortunately (I'll say it again) I can't be arsed. Same goes for writing the book, because nothing inspires me enough to write an entire book. But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years.

paulpauper 8y ago
But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years. It depends on the genre and if it's fiction or non-fiction. Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect. It's not like writing 300 300-word blog posts.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect. Ever read Dan Brown?
  - Skunkleton 8y ago
    Renowned author Dan Brown
  - zbentley 8y ago
    That isn't a counterargument. Regardless of whether or not you think someone's writing is good, to your taste, or nuanced, there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves (or e-reader equivalent). It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves Is there? The general public can be sold any kind of crap that takes minimal effort -- and in the same way, don't buy masterpieces that take tremendous effort and skill to create. >It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy. This isn't an argument on actual writing skill though. It's like you measure a new category like "skill of writing best-selling stuff" that's not necessarily connected to the skill of writing itself -- just to the degree of sales. But one can sell bad stuff or skilless stuff too. Sales don't show anything more than a skill in sales themselves.

paulpauper 8y ago

the reason why some ppl cannot run well is due to lactic acid buildup and VO2 max level. This means some people will cramp up and get exhausted no matter how hard they train or even if they lose weight. Similarly, with regard to writing, some people are simply not smart enough. If you didn't get a near-perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT, maybe fiction writing is not for you (but non-fiction is always a possibly).

dasil003 8y ago
Performance on standardized testing is not a good measure of writing ability. It mostly has to do with hoop-jumping, a little bit to do with ability and nothing to do with motivation. Writing a novel is exactly the opposite: it requires a lot of motivation and a little bit of ability.
- paulpauper 8y ago
  I would posit that the vast majority of fiction writers test well, but very few people who test well become writers.
ska 8y ago
The overwhelming majority of people are capable of running a marathon distance, even if at a slow pace. Not perhaps today, but by working up to it in a very achievable way. Similarly, the overwhelming majority can produce a book length manuscript, even if it isn't particularly remarkable. Again, they may need to work up to it. In this, near-perfect verbal SAT is pretty much irrelevant.
- paulpauper 8y ago
  But I mean a good marathon time, and getting a book accepted by a publisher, in which there is an advance and royalties (not self-publishing). If by publishing you mean Amazon, then yeah, anyone can do that. Even robots can. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-kindle-spam/spam-clogging-amazons-kindle-self-publishing-idUSTRE75F68620110616 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-kindle-spam/spam-c...

csbrooks 8y ago

So then, you agree with the last paragraph of the article?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

saulrh 8y ago

Tell that to my knees. I'm mostly fine walking around. I can even do short flights of stairs. In fact, up until a few years ago they only bothered me when I sat in a really unergonomic chair for a while. Then someone convinced me to try this "couch to 5k" thing, and said that literally anyone could do it, and that I liked like I weighed maybe half as much as people that'd actually followed the timetable and gone from couch to 5k. Fast forward two months. The doctor says "stay off your feet and see if it gets better". They haven't started feeling better. It's been almost three years. I understand the viewpoint you're trying to hold, and I sympathize. Knowing there are things you can't do really sucks. Especially when you try and fail at something you really wanted, in Brooklyn or otherwise. Unfortunately, you're being a little bit insensitive, verging on offensive. "Just put down the crutches and walk". "Just stop being depressed and be happy". "Just focus". "Just try harder". "Just stop telling yourself you're incapable".

dvtrn 8y ago
Tell that to my knees Almost came here with this exact same comment. Absolutely not amount of motivation or feel good thinking about my own capabilities and willingness to 'do the damn thing' can surmount the sheer agony and pain I feel after a 2 mile run (because that's the most I can bear to stand) after years of jumping out of airplanes for a living (US Military) over 12 years. Ever have your knee shattered to pieces and fracture a femur after having a chute partially open and hitting the ground at 6ft/sec? Lemme tell you something: it's horrifying. You know the phrase "blinding pain"? It's a kind of pain that's so severe your vision literally blurs. You can see things, you can make out shapes, but your brain is so focused on that pain that vision rides shotgun for a bit. It's a level of pain that can (and has) induced vomiting and loss of consciousness when I so much as step the wrong way off a curb. Don't tell me "you can do it, just put your mind to it" when my mind doesn't even have the bandwidth to register vision. There is NO amount of "you can do it" motivational, go-getter mentality that will convince me to push through that kind of pain. Absolutely, positively and without any hesitation on the topic at hand: N-O-N-E. Heck, I stood up once to go get a cup of coffee, turned, stepped in an awkward way and turned my knee and immediately fell over in tears. So when someone says they can't run a marathon, maybe leave it at that-they know what they're capable of better than you do.

jdietrich 8y ago

>Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not. Eeesh. Any able-bodied person can walk a marathon, given sufficient motivation. You might be able to run parts of it, but you can't run a marathon through sheer force of will if you haven't done the training. A book is technically just a bunch of bound pages, so anyone can write one in the loosest sense of the word. I can just type the word "beige" 80,000 times and call it a day. Writing a book that someone will actually read past the first chapter requires a certain level of skill. The author isn't telling people not to try - his closing paragraph makes that clear - but he's warning people of the amount of work and practice involved in writing something that people want to read. To quote the great Ronnie Coleman, "everybody wanna to be a bodybuilder, but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight". The number of people who like the idea of being an author is vastly greater than the number of people willing to learn how to write well. If you enjoy the process of writing, then by all means write for your own pleasure. If you harbour dreams of being the next J.K. Rowling, you're likely to be sorely disappointed.

ALittleLight 8y ago
I think "if you haven't done the training" is the operative phrase. Similarly nobody could write a novel if they hadn't learned to write, or read enough, etc. If a healthy person wants to run a marathon they will be able to by a process of training. The original metaphor is a bit off. Anyone who puts in the effort could write fifty thousand words on the same theme or plot. Likewise anyone could complete a marathon with enough training and effort. A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it. While everyone can do the amateur version of these tasks not everyone can do the professional certain.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it. It's not merely a case of writing something that someone would pay to read, but writing something that someone would read at all. That's a considerably lower hurdle, but one that many authors never vault. Every day, the slush piles of publishers swell with lovingly-crafted novels that will, in all likelihood, never be read by anyone. The parallel I might draw is with a singer so dreadfully tone deaf that their neighbours lodge a complaint, or a comedian so bad that they are booed off stage at an open-mic night. Most first-time novelists are precisely that awful - their work is not merely of insufficient quality to attract a paying audience, but actively repellent. Few budding authors are prepared for that level of disappointment.

ryan-allen 8y ago

In the greater scheme of things, as long as you can get it self-published and archived somewhere meaningful (which is not particular difficult as far as I know), maybe 300 years from now when you're dead and buried maybe your audience will find you. A number of famous composers were not 'successful' in their time, same with painters, same with some writers (A Confederacy of Dunces comes to mind), later after their death they gained acclaim. I think the mere act of creation and distribution of art is the goal in itself, and with technology you can keep it around for a long time. To say something isn't popular doesn't mean it's not good. In 200 years conservatories of music are not going to be talking about Taylor Swift despite her engineered success, who knows who they'll be talking about!