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Concrete is manual 3D printing from 100+ years ago. =) I've seen a concrete 3d printer, but it doesn't look like it would be structural. i.e. not sure how you

Concrete is manual 3D printing from 100+ years ago. =) I've seen a concrete 3d printer, but it doesn't look like it would be structural. i.e. not sure how you would print around full lengths of rebar?

theoh 8y ago
You have to build formwork to construct with in-situ concrete, so there's still carpentry (or equivalent) involved. It's a good point that existing architectural concrete 3d printing creates "mass concrete" not reinforced concrete, but mass concrete can be structural.
- jethro_tell 8y ago
  What sort of structure would you use a concrete without a tensile support like rebar or steel of some kind? How would that stand up in an earthquake?
  - theoh 8y ago
    "Primitive" structures and other structures engineered to avoid tension in the concrete. Concrete doesn't have zero tensile strength. Apparently it's a few MPa, so a fifth or a tenth of the compressive strength. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/concrete-properties-d_1223.html http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/concrete-properties-d_... The large dome of the (Roman) Pantheon is unreinforced concrete. Most compressive structures built before the modern period (arches, domes, buttresses) were not reinforced with tension elements, just plain masonry.
    - crwalker 8y ago
      The concrete in the Pantheon is exposed to max ~20 psi tensile stress, and the concrete can handle about ~200 psi tensile stress. http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/chapt01/chapt01.htm http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/chapt01/chapt01.htm
  - burfog 8y ago
    Rebar makes earthquakes worse, as seen in California's freeway collapse. The rebar depends on the concrete to prevent corrosion, but that is only good for roughly 50 years. Rust causes expansion, which cases cracking. The outer concrete falls away, leaving rebar to get crushed under the load. The obvious fixes, like stainless steel rebar, have thermal expansion coefficients that don't match concrete, so instead you get cracking even without corrosion. Lots of Roman stuff is still standing in areas that get earthquakes. The solution is to use a conservative design, with arches and thick walls. Domes are good. We can improve on this with 3D printing, using a structure like mammalian bone: solid near the surface, and spongy in the middle.
    - wjnqx 8y ago
      Would you be able to provide links to modern structures built with the methods you're describing or research about them? Does this conservative design resemble something like Gaudi's Sagrada Familia, or is that the wrong way to think about it?
      - theoh 8y ago
        Here's one modern example: https://pagethink.com/v/project-detail/Wiss-Janney-Elstner-Associates-Office-Building/54/ https://pagethink.com/v/project-detail/Wiss-Janney-Elstner-A... It really means massiveness and stability, in order to have an acceptable margin of safety. One aspect of the theory is the notion of a line of thrust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_thrust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_thrust Arch dams might be the only type of "contemporary" looking structure that is habitually made in this way out of unreinforced concrete. Although Gaudi was interested in structural optimization (using catenary models), he is an outlier in terms of design. He didn't comprehensively consider seismic aspects, though apparently he didn't do too badly: https://blog.sagradafamilia.org/en/divulgation/seismic-activity-sagrada-familia/ https://blog.sagradafamilia.org/en/divulgation/seismic-activ...
        wjnqx 8y ago
        Thanks! Those were some interesting reads.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
These guys are building small houses with a thing that prints in layers just like a home 3D printer, using mortar instead of plastic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCzS2FZoB-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCzS2FZoB-I It looks like there's manually placed metal mesh for reinforcement. Dunno what the quality's like, but it's there. It does seem like it would be tricky to scale to structures larger than the practical footprint of their printer, but maybe the thing could be mounted on wheels.
- jethro_tell 8y ago
  You could probably print in sections as well. This looks like it would be good for single story structures and possibly foundations/footings for larger 2 and 3 story structures.
saalweachter 8y ago
There's a YouTube channel, "My Little Homestead" where a family builds various house-additions and structures out of stucco-covered dirt-filled sandbags. Dunno how that sort of construction technique pans out long-term or large-scale but you could get the sort of floorplans the GA generated out of it.

theoh 8y ago

You have to build formwork to construct with in-situ concrete, so there's still carpentry (or equivalent) involved. It's a good point that existing architectural concrete 3d printing creates "mass concrete" not reinforced concrete, but mass concrete can be structural.

jethro_tell 8y ago
What sort of structure would you use a concrete without a tensile support like rebar or steel of some kind? How would that stand up in an earthquake?
- theoh 8y ago
  "Primitive" structures and other structures engineered to avoid tension in the concrete. Concrete doesn't have zero tensile strength. Apparently it's a few MPa, so a fifth or a tenth of the compressive strength. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/concrete-properties-d_1223.html http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/concrete-properties-d_... The large dome of the (Roman) Pantheon is unreinforced concrete. Most compressive structures built before the modern period (arches, domes, buttresses) were not reinforced with tension elements, just plain masonry.
  - crwalker 8y ago
    The concrete in the Pantheon is exposed to max ~20 psi tensile stress, and the concrete can handle about ~200 psi tensile stress. http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/chapt01/chapt01.htm http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/chapt01/chapt01.htm
- burfog 8y ago
  Rebar makes earthquakes worse, as seen in California's freeway collapse. The rebar depends on the concrete to prevent corrosion, but that is only good for roughly 50 years. Rust causes expansion, which cases cracking. The outer concrete falls away, leaving rebar to get crushed under the load. The obvious fixes, like stainless steel rebar, have thermal expansion coefficients that don't match concrete, so instead you get cracking even without corrosion. Lots of Roman stuff is still standing in areas that get earthquakes. The solution is to use a conservative design, with arches and thick walls. Domes are good. We can improve on this with 3D printing, using a structure like mammalian bone: solid near the surface, and spongy in the middle.
  - wjnqx 8y ago
    Would you be able to provide links to modern structures built with the methods you're describing or research about them? Does this conservative design resemble something like Gaudi's Sagrada Familia, or is that the wrong way to think about it?
    - theoh 8y ago
      Here's one modern example: https://pagethink.com/v/project-detail/Wiss-Janney-Elstner-Associates-Office-Building/54/ https://pagethink.com/v/project-detail/Wiss-Janney-Elstner-A... It really means massiveness and stability, in order to have an acceptable margin of safety. One aspect of the theory is the notion of a line of thrust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_thrust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_thrust Arch dams might be the only type of "contemporary" looking structure that is habitually made in this way out of unreinforced concrete. Although Gaudi was interested in structural optimization (using catenary models), he is an outlier in terms of design. He didn't comprehensively consider seismic aspects, though apparently he didn't do too badly: https://blog.sagradafamilia.org/en/divulgation/seismic-activity-sagrada-familia/ https://blog.sagradafamilia.org/en/divulgation/seismic-activ...
      - wjnqx 8y ago
        Thanks! Those were some interesting reads.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

These guys are building small houses with a thing that prints in layers just like a home 3D printer, using mortar instead of plastic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCzS2FZoB-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCzS2FZoB-I It looks like there's manually placed metal mesh for reinforcement. Dunno what the quality's like, but it's there. It does seem like it would be tricky to scale to structures larger than the practical footprint of their printer, but maybe the thing could be mounted on wheels.

jethro_tell 8y ago
You could probably print in sections as well. This looks like it would be good for single story structures and possibly foundations/footings for larger 2 and 3 story structures.

saalweachter 8y ago

There's a YouTube channel, "My Little Homestead" where a family builds various house-additions and structures out of stucco-covered dirt-filled sandbags. Dunno how that sort of construction technique pans out long-term or large-scale but you could get the sort of floorplans the GA generated out of it.