8 ms·

For the sake of argument, can you name a current law that treats people unequally by some immutable quality of the individual?

rectang 8y ago
"Immutable", eh? That would exclude wealth. But disparities of wealth are a fountainhead of unequal treatment under US bail laws.
- IanDrake 8y ago
  I wouldn’t consider wealth to be immutable, but I think your example is clear, so let’s roll it forward. So you would rather see bail set at a percentage of net worth? That would make things equal?
  - maym86 8y ago
    This, from a explaination of the UK system in a comment below. > Police can only hold you for up to 96 hours without charging you with a crime. Once you are charged with something and awaiting trial, you have to be tried within 56 days. If you are not tried within those 56 days you have to be released on unconditional bail. Police can set up bail before the trail, but it cannot involve money - frequently it involves staying at a particular address, reporting to the police station daily, not contacting certain people etc - it depends on the severity of the crime, you cannot be released on bail for acts of violence or armed robbery for example.
    - IanDrake 8y ago
      Is this what you’re advocating? Police get to optionally, at their discretion, set bail? That seems ripe for abuse. At this point in history, I would NEVER look to the UK as a model for anything state related. It barely qualifies as a western democracy these days.
      - maym86 8y ago
        > It barely qualifies as a western democracy these days. Care to explain?
        IanDrake 8y ago
        There seems to be an assault on freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and the right to self defense (life). Freedom of the press: The Tommy Robinson episode which is the first time I had heard of the broad government ability to ban news stories from being reported. You don’t have to agree with Robinson’s politics, you just need to realize the precedent it sets. Freedom of speech: Chelsea Russell - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-who-posted-rap-lyrics-14543694 https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-wh... Mark Meechan - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotlan... I’m not defending these people, but think about the chilling effect this has on speech. Right to self defense: U.K. took away the right to legally own hand guns in 1996. Since then knife violence has been on the rise. London is now considering “common sense knife control”. There is no longer any legal weapon you can carry that will give you a force multiplier over an attacker. This is especially dangerous for women. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/feb/11/knife-police-liberty-clinic https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr...
        maym86 8y ago
        Nonsense. Have you actually lived in the UK?
        IanDrake 8y ago
        No. Is all you have an appeal to authority argument? What about what I said is nonsense? Are you saying that you have freedom of speech while a 19yr old posting lyrics from a rap song on her private Instagram page is censured and fined for doing so? Are you saying your government can’t censor media outlets from certain topics? Are you saying you have the right to defend yourself with some sort of force multiplier? If you’re willing to explain why I’m wrong factually or philosophical, I’m willing to listen.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
lexs 8y ago
You bring up an important point with that question, what exactly is an immutable quality of the individual. Is the upbringing, cultural influences etc also immutable qualities or are you only talking about actual physical properties such as age, gender, skincolour etc.
- IanDrake 8y ago
  I would say the latter. People have escaped their upbringing, culture, and socioeconomic position. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not immutable either. But I’ve never seen a woman become a man or a white person become a POC. So that’s pretty immutable. I’ll take examples from either category though.
  - smt88 8y ago
    People have sex changes. Since race is a social construct and has no provable scientific reality, lots of people "pass" as other races depending on where/when they are being observed. Mixed-race people have always done this, sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose.
    - IanDrake 8y ago
      Having a sex change doesn’t turn a man into a woman. There is no basis in science for that. If that were true, I could paint a tennis ball orange and eat it like a fruit. Race is not a “social construct”. If that were true, I wouldn’t be able to blindly tell your race via a dna test. Where does all this anti-science rhetoric come from? I guess global warming and evolution is a myth too?
      - sincerely 8y ago
        "race is a social construct" refers to the fact that the racial categories we place people in as a society do not have a strong relationship to the type of racial information available through biological testing.
smt88 8y ago
All laws based on age, ability/disability, the place someone (or their parent) was born, gender, prior criminal status, and sexuality. I'm only talking about the US, though. I can give examples of each if you don't believe me.
- IanDrake 8y ago
  Yes, examples are exactly what I was asking for.

rectang 8y ago

"Immutable", eh? That would exclude wealth. But disparities of wealth are a fountainhead of unequal treatment under US bail laws.

IanDrake 8y ago
I wouldn’t consider wealth to be immutable, but I think your example is clear, so let’s roll it forward. So you would rather see bail set at a percentage of net worth? That would make things equal?
- maym86 8y ago
  This, from a explaination of the UK system in a comment below. > Police can only hold you for up to 96 hours without charging you with a crime. Once you are charged with something and awaiting trial, you have to be tried within 56 days. If you are not tried within those 56 days you have to be released on unconditional bail. Police can set up bail before the trail, but it cannot involve money - frequently it involves staying at a particular address, reporting to the police station daily, not contacting certain people etc - it depends on the severity of the crime, you cannot be released on bail for acts of violence or armed robbery for example.
  - IanDrake 8y ago
    Is this what you’re advocating? Police get to optionally, at their discretion, set bail? That seems ripe for abuse. At this point in history, I would NEVER look to the UK as a model for anything state related. It barely qualifies as a western democracy these days.
    - maym86 8y ago
      > It barely qualifies as a western democracy these days. Care to explain?
      - IanDrake 8y ago
        There seems to be an assault on freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and the right to self defense (life). Freedom of the press: The Tommy Robinson episode which is the first time I had heard of the broad government ability to ban news stories from being reported. You don’t have to agree with Robinson’s politics, you just need to realize the precedent it sets. Freedom of speech: Chelsea Russell - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-who-posted-rap-lyrics-14543694 https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-wh... Mark Meechan - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotlan... I’m not defending these people, but think about the chilling effect this has on speech. Right to self defense: U.K. took away the right to legally own hand guns in 1996. Since then knife violence has been on the rise. London is now considering “common sense knife control”. There is no longer any legal weapon you can carry that will give you a force multiplier over an attacker. This is especially dangerous for women. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/feb/11/knife-police-liberty-clinic https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr...
        maym86 8y ago
        Nonsense. Have you actually lived in the UK?
        IanDrake 8y ago
        No. Is all you have an appeal to authority argument? What about what I said is nonsense? Are you saying that you have freedom of speech while a 19yr old posting lyrics from a rap song on her private Instagram page is censured and fined for doing so? Are you saying your government can’t censor media outlets from certain topics? Are you saying you have the right to defend yourself with some sort of force multiplier? If you’re willing to explain why I’m wrong factually or philosophical, I’m willing to listen.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

lexs 8y ago

You bring up an important point with that question, what exactly is an immutable quality of the individual. Is the upbringing, cultural influences etc also immutable qualities or are you only talking about actual physical properties such as age, gender, skincolour etc.

IanDrake 8y ago
I would say the latter. People have escaped their upbringing, culture, and socioeconomic position. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not immutable either. But I’ve never seen a woman become a man or a white person become a POC. So that’s pretty immutable. I’ll take examples from either category though.
- smt88 8y ago
  People have sex changes. Since race is a social construct and has no provable scientific reality, lots of people "pass" as other races depending on where/when they are being observed. Mixed-race people have always done this, sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose.
  - IanDrake 8y ago
    Having a sex change doesn’t turn a man into a woman. There is no basis in science for that. If that were true, I could paint a tennis ball orange and eat it like a fruit. Race is not a “social construct”. If that were true, I wouldn’t be able to blindly tell your race via a dna test. Where does all this anti-science rhetoric come from? I guess global warming and evolution is a myth too?
    - sincerely 8y ago
      "race is a social construct" refers to the fact that the racial categories we place people in as a society do not have a strong relationship to the type of racial information available through biological testing.

smt88 8y ago

All laws based on age, ability/disability, the place someone (or their parent) was born, gender, prior criminal status, and sexuality. I'm only talking about the US, though. I can give examples of each if you don't believe me.

IanDrake 8y ago
Yes, examples are exactly what I was asking for.