4 ms·

Sure, that's certainly important to keep in mind. But that doesn't mean IBM shouldn't invest in usability.

sien 8y ago
They and others have. There are ways to develop in Eclipse that can target z/OS. https://developer.ibm.com/zsystems/documentation/java/jzos/jzos-set-up/ https://developer.ibm.com/zsystems/documentation/java/jzos/j... https://www.ikanalm.com/solutions/devops-and-toolchain-orchestration-for-ibm-z-os.html https://www.ikanalm.com/solutions/devops-and-toolchain-orche... However, the people who develop for z/OS are often people who are familiar with Interactive System Productivity Facility (ISPF). It's a bit like whether people who are proficient in Vim or Emacs really benefit that much from an IDE. There is also a unix shell with a z/OS interface: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ibm.zos.zconcepts/zconc_whatiszunix.htm https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ib... But again, the people who program mainframe learn it through that environment. It would be interesting to hear from people who have used these sorts of set ups.
- jareds 8y ago
  I've been working on Mainframes for the passed 8 years full time, and several internships before that. I often go several days with out needing to use ISPF. I use https://compuware.com/workbench-mainframe-modernization/ https://compuware.com/workbench-mainframe-modernization/ for dataset editing, job submission, etc. I find the Unix shell you access through ISPF to be very difficult to use. Luckily SSH is available on z/OS, so if I need to do Unix stuff I can just SSH in with the client of my choice. The biggest difficulty I had when getting started was understanding JCL. I had come from a Linux background, so was used to executing commands with arbitrary file names, looping, etc. It took me a while to understand how JCL worked. Once I understood that you have to define datasets with things such as space allocation and disposition before using them, and that JCL was a series of sequential steps with the output from a prior step available to a later step a switch flipped and I went from struggling with JCL to fairly comfortable in a couple days. I'm not sure how much of this was the fact that I was an intern at the time so didn't have a lot of programming experience and how much of it is the platform. I find that once you get comfortable with the basics of JCL the structure it forces you into actually makes it easier, even though it is limiting in some ways. The issue I still have with the Mainframe is documentation. Unlike most programming questions a google search does not turn up Stackoverflow results. I find I spend a lot of time going through random forums or reading the IBM doc. I don't find IBM doc easy to understand, but the more I have to deal with it the easier it gets.
  - Xarodon 8y ago
    > The issue I still have with the Mainframe is documentation. Unlike most programming questions a google search does not turn up Stackoverflow results. I find I spend a lot of time going through random forums or reading the IBM doc. I don't find IBM doc easy to understand, but the more I have to deal with it the easier it gets. You're not alone my friend, those IBM docs certainly are not easy to read/understand.
    - southern_cross 8y ago
      > You're not alone my friend, those IBM docs certainly are not easy to read/understand. Just as for Unix, Linux, Windows, and so on, there's an IBM "culture" (terminology, conventions, etc.) that you have to get used to. (It often helps to know some of its history, too.) But since I grew up professionally with one foot in the IBM world I usually don't have much trouble at all reading their docs.
  - krylon 8y ago
    > I find the Unix shell you access through ISPF to be very difficult to use. Hehe, I once ran tail(1) and forgot to enter the file name, so tail read from stdin, and Ctrl+D did not work, so my shell was stuck waiting for input until the system was IPL'ed. Fun times... ;-)
    - southern_cross 8y ago
      This is just between you and me, OK, but a couple of years back I managed to do something similar on an IBM i, in its QShell (AIX) environment. And it felt bad, too, because such an unrecoverable glitch is almost unheard of in iSeries land!
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    FYI, https://www.reddit.com/r/mainframe https://www.reddit.com/r/mainframe is a thing, as is http://terminaltalk.net http://terminaltalk.net .
mschaef 8y ago
> that doesn't mean IBM shouldn't invest in usability. For whom? They shouldn't necessarily spend a bunch of effort adapting their product towards the Unix world, particularly to the extent it compromies their product for their primary customer base.
- krylon 8y ago
  Part of the problem about mainframes is that it has become really difficult for companies to find employees familiar with the environment. And learning the environment makes learning Unix look like a cakewalk.
SuperPaintMan 8y ago
I've managed to make do with VSCode, sshfs, reading the iconv manpage and using the USS Submit command for job cards. The current workflow has SDSF open in c3270 to the left and VSCode loaded with Cobol extensions to the right. Saving, compiling and running my code is only a few keystrokes and it's not too hard. There's even full IDEs and integration packages as other users have mentioned. It's usable, but a little different. I mean the guys at Rocket Software have ports of some of the basic unix packages for z/OS including the Bash Shell, just adding that to USS improves quality of life tenfold. Many features are doable through USS but ISPF will always be the main interface.
krylon 8y ago
I wonder why they haven't developed a more human-friendly successor to JCL. I get that IBM's all about backward compatibility, but would it kill them to add a more accessible alternative? I once spent three days figuring out how to deal with an invocation that did not fit in an 80-character line. sigh
- southern_cross 8y ago
  There was OCL on the IBM S/34 and S/36 back in the day, and there's CL on the IBM i today, which dates back to the earliest S/38 days (circa 1978). It's been some decades now since I've dealt with JCL, but as I recall both of those other languages make JCL look like child's play in comparison. Also, don't forget about Rexx!
  - krylon 8y ago
    Ugh, I tried to learn Rexx and I really did not like it. Maybe it is more "at home" on a mainframe, but playing with Regina Rexx on my desktop was no fun. (Rexx has since developed an object oriented dialect, that might be more convenient to use.)

sien 8y ago

They and others have. There are ways to develop in Eclipse that can target z/OS. https://developer.ibm.com/zsystems/documentation/java/jzos/jzos-set-up/ https://developer.ibm.com/zsystems/documentation/java/jzos/j... https://www.ikanalm.com/solutions/devops-and-toolchain-orchestration-for-ibm-z-os.html https://www.ikanalm.com/solutions/devops-and-toolchain-orche... However, the people who develop for z/OS are often people who are familiar with Interactive System Productivity Facility (ISPF). It's a bit like whether people who are proficient in Vim or Emacs really benefit that much from an IDE. There is also a unix shell with a z/OS interface: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ibm.zos.zconcepts/zconc_whatiszunix.htm https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ib... But again, the people who program mainframe learn it through that environment. It would be interesting to hear from people who have used these sorts of set ups.

jareds 8y ago
I've been working on Mainframes for the passed 8 years full time, and several internships before that. I often go several days with out needing to use ISPF. I use https://compuware.com/workbench-mainframe-modernization/ https://compuware.com/workbench-mainframe-modernization/ for dataset editing, job submission, etc. I find the Unix shell you access through ISPF to be very difficult to use. Luckily SSH is available on z/OS, so if I need to do Unix stuff I can just SSH in with the client of my choice. The biggest difficulty I had when getting started was understanding JCL. I had come from a Linux background, so was used to executing commands with arbitrary file names, looping, etc. It took me a while to understand how JCL worked. Once I understood that you have to define datasets with things such as space allocation and disposition before using them, and that JCL was a series of sequential steps with the output from a prior step available to a later step a switch flipped and I went from struggling with JCL to fairly comfortable in a couple days. I'm not sure how much of this was the fact that I was an intern at the time so didn't have a lot of programming experience and how much of it is the platform. I find that once you get comfortable with the basics of JCL the structure it forces you into actually makes it easier, even though it is limiting in some ways. The issue I still have with the Mainframe is documentation. Unlike most programming questions a google search does not turn up Stackoverflow results. I find I spend a lot of time going through random forums or reading the IBM doc. I don't find IBM doc easy to understand, but the more I have to deal with it the easier it gets.
- Xarodon 8y ago
  > The issue I still have with the Mainframe is documentation. Unlike most programming questions a google search does not turn up Stackoverflow results. I find I spend a lot of time going through random forums or reading the IBM doc. I don't find IBM doc easy to understand, but the more I have to deal with it the easier it gets. You're not alone my friend, those IBM docs certainly are not easy to read/understand.
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    > You're not alone my friend, those IBM docs certainly are not easy to read/understand. Just as for Unix, Linux, Windows, and so on, there's an IBM "culture" (terminology, conventions, etc.) that you have to get used to. (It often helps to know some of its history, too.) But since I grew up professionally with one foot in the IBM world I usually don't have much trouble at all reading their docs.
- krylon 8y ago
  > I find the Unix shell you access through ISPF to be very difficult to use. Hehe, I once ran tail(1) and forgot to enter the file name, so tail read from stdin, and Ctrl+D did not work, so my shell was stuck waiting for input until the system was IPL'ed. Fun times... ;-)
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    This is just between you and me, OK, but a couple of years back I managed to do something similar on an IBM i, in its QShell (AIX) environment. And it felt bad, too, because such an unrecoverable glitch is almost unheard of in iSeries land!
- southern_cross 8y ago
  FYI, https://www.reddit.com/r/mainframe https://www.reddit.com/r/mainframe is a thing, as is http://terminaltalk.net http://terminaltalk.net .

mschaef 8y ago

> that doesn't mean IBM shouldn't invest in usability. For whom? They shouldn't necessarily spend a bunch of effort adapting their product towards the Unix world, particularly to the extent it compromies their product for their primary customer base.

krylon 8y ago
Part of the problem about mainframes is that it has become really difficult for companies to find employees familiar with the environment. And learning the environment makes learning Unix look like a cakewalk.

SuperPaintMan 8y ago

I've managed to make do with VSCode, sshfs, reading the iconv manpage and using the USS Submit command for job cards. The current workflow has SDSF open in c3270 to the left and VSCode loaded with Cobol extensions to the right. Saving, compiling and running my code is only a few keystrokes and it's not too hard. There's even full IDEs and integration packages as other users have mentioned. It's usable, but a little different. I mean the guys at Rocket Software have ports of some of the basic unix packages for z/OS including the Bash Shell, just adding that to USS improves quality of life tenfold. Many features are doable through USS but ISPF will always be the main interface.

krylon 8y ago

I wonder why they haven't developed a more human-friendly successor to JCL. I get that IBM's all about backward compatibility, but would it kill them to add a more accessible alternative? I once spent three days figuring out how to deal with an invocation that did not fit in an 80-character line. sigh

southern_cross 8y ago
There was OCL on the IBM S/34 and S/36 back in the day, and there's CL on the IBM i today, which dates back to the earliest S/38 days (circa 1978). It's been some decades now since I've dealt with JCL, but as I recall both of those other languages make JCL look like child's play in comparison. Also, don't forget about Rexx!
- krylon 8y ago
  Ugh, I tried to learn Rexx and I really did not like it. Maybe it is more "at home" on a mainframe, but playing with Regina Rexx on my desktop was no fun. (Rexx has since developed an object oriented dialect, that might be more convenient to use.)