6 ms·

> No runtime exceptions, ever. This is something I wonder about JS: there are a lot of places that exceptions happen in (say) Python that just return `NaN` or

> No runtime exceptions, ever. This is something I wonder about JS: there are a lot of places that exceptions happen in (say) Python that just return `NaN` or `undefined` in javascript. Is it intentional? Is it a good idea? Examples: the multiplication operator essentially never throws. Out-of-bounds (or "not found") lookups don't throw. I suspect the logic is "only throw if you have the wrong type for that operation" -- like calling something that isn't a function, or looking up an attribute on something that isn't an object. (Except multiplication for things that aren't numbers is fine, I guess...) I'm writing a dynamically typed language and don't know if it's better to go the JS way or the Python way. Or do something horrible like having multiplication return a `Maybe` type...

setr 8y ago
I would argue to throw; there's not much good that comes out of intentionally having an error cascade through the program until reaches a throwable error, or produces incorrect results (this is true for both python and js, but the decision you're making is to allow it more than absolutely necessary for a dynamic lamguage)
lomnakkus 8y ago
The JS way is a mistake, intentional or not. Here's a little thought experiment: Your program ends up with an "undefined" in some variable 'x'. How did that happen? In JS it can happen in any number of weird and wonderful ways, e.g. you called a function which did a 'v[i]' or it could have just fallen off the end because someone forgot to check a return path, or... In Python there's much less scope what the problem could be. Since v[i] will just throw an IndexError, you know that the problem couldn't possibly be stray index or similar. That is a much better experience for finding problems in one's code.
- millstone 8y ago
  But JS programs must execute in uncontrolled environments, e.g. browser engines from the past and future with random extensions installed. A bondage-and-discipline language may help developers find logic bugs, but will make the users' experiences worse.
  - lomnakkus 8y ago
    How is "there was a JavaScript error on this page" informational icon any worse than an order total of "undefined" or that the page just doesn't seem to be reacting to clicks? I'd argue that the former is much better UX -- at least the user isn't confused whether it's them that's doing something wrong or it's the page that just shoddily implemented.
    - millstone 8y ago
      Banker vs moon rover. B&D languages panic at the first whiff of deviation between the compile-time and runtime environments. But I loaded cnn.com, and my third-party ad blocker did god-knows-what to dozens of requests, with a bazillion unexpected undefineds, and yet the page still rendered. The web powers through!
      - lomnakkus 8y ago
        This has nothing to do with undefined vs. exceptions, sorry. You can do example the same with a powerful enough sandbox -- e.g. what WebAsm does to avoid hostile code taking over your computer. It has everything to do with sandboxing (or not). Ads being served by third parties should not be able to influence the JS running in the page.
    - codetrotter 8y ago
      > at least the user isn't confused whether it's them that's doing something wrong or it's the page that just shoddily implemented Users generally ignore all messages coming from their computers. They routinely blame their computers for doing things that the computers are not doing at all. Like, oh I can’t find the document I wrote three weeks ago -> obviously my computer is being disobedient. Anyway, I don’t blame the users. To them the computer is entirely uninteresting and they don’t want to care about the sorts of concerns that we technically minded people do. A broken page is a broken page and it doesn’t matter to the user why the page is broken. The only thing that matters to them is, can they do the thing they wanted to do or not. And like the sibling said, the web browsers are surprisingly good at handling broken code.
zachrose 8y ago
Yeah in general it’s good to avoid sometimes returning a value and sometimes undefined. There’s an equivalence you can make between a type and a mathematical set, where you say that the type is the set of all possible values for that type. In both JavaScript and math, multiplication of numbers is an operation that has a special property called closure, which means that the return type is the same as the input types. Multiply a number by another number and you will ALWAYS get a number back. The inputs and the outputs are in the same set, which means you can go nuts multiplying numbers and you’ll never have to check your values to make sure they’re still numbers; it can be safely assumed. JavaScript gives NaN a type of “number” as a clever compromise. Instead of throwing an error when multiplying a number by a non-number, JS allows multiplication to still return a “number” (`4 * ‘a’ === NaN`) and then you don’t need to ever worry about accidentally “leaving” the set of numbers (`NaN * 10 === NaN`). More likely than not though, multiplying a number and a string is just not a useful thing to do. With a good type system, a program that could wind up in a situation of multiplying a string and a number can be rejected by the compiler. So in a roundabout answer to your question, a lot of “what then?!” situations can be entirely avoided with a good type system. For the remaining situations like accessing an element in an array that may not exist, a Maybe can make a lot of sense. (Maybe Float turns out to be just like JavaScript’s numbers, but instead of NaN you have Nothing.)
- kazagistar 8y ago
  Closure is only good in programming if the answers it gives are always useful. Otherwise, you run into the same non local error problem that plagues nulls: the error still happens, but now it happens at some distant usage site, far away from the cause.
  - zachrose 8y ago
    Good point. This is exactly what JavaScript does with NaN and the set of numbers, and errors are harder to track down because of it. Computer numbers in general have all sorts of issues like this where clean mathematical theory is broken. NaN, Infinity and -Infinity, for example, are all similar to absorbing elements[1] under multiplication in the sense that once you get that as a result, you can't do the inverse operation (division) to get back to your original inputs.
barrkel 8y ago
It's generally better to highlight the existence of an error condition sooner rather than later. Compile time is better than runtime, evaluation time is better than via explicit value inspection. Non-signalling NaNs provide an easy way of distributing an invalid value widely throughout a program's data structures before it's discovered. The only reason to go the other way, and have silent NaN propagation, is if they're expected to occur very frequently. For example, consider how awkward SQL would be if evaluating over null values triggered errors - the conditionality of expressions would need to become very elaborate. Monadic approaches to errors (Maybe, Rust's Result, that conditionally apply a function to a value only if it's not an error) blur the line between these two. Because they rely on data flow, they feel a bit like non-signalling NaNs. OTOH, evaluation generally bubbles up using monadic return types, and errors bubble up too, just like exceptions - exceptions, and consistent, universal use of monadic return types, are isomorphic and can have the same evaluation characteristics.
- _hl_ 8y ago
  > exceptions, and consistent, universal use of monadic return types, are isomorphic and can have the same evaluation characteristics. I feel like there is a small but important difference. Encoding exceptions in monadic return types allows the type system to guarantee that all exceptions are handled, or at least considered by the programmer. That is a very strong guarantee, especially as you put up layers and layers of foreign libraries and abstractions.
masklinn 8y ago
> This is something I wonder about JS: there are a lot of places that exceptions happen in (say) Python that just return `NaN` or `undefined` in javascript. Is it intentional? Is it a good idea? Yes and no respectively. It's intentional in the sense that the original Javascript was not intended to fault (much) because it was for basic scripting, so if one small script blew up it should not bring down the entire page's scripting. This also resulted in Javascript's exceptions facilities being very shitty (exception handling is not very flexible/convenient, and while that may have changed since — not sure — for a long time it was impossible to sub-type the native Error). However it's not really a good idea for non-trivial software systems, it makes errors much harder to notice, recover from and debug. In fact "modern" JS APIs tend to fault e.g. parsing invalid JSON raises SyntaxError, it doesn't return null or undefined; and promises and async functions will convert exceptions to failures.
- repsilat 8y ago
  Invalid JSON parsing as `null` would be an exciting API decision, haha. One thing I think I like about JS over Python is that empty containers are "truthy". This, combined with non-raising missed lookups, tends to be pretty ergonomic. For me, at least. Though it is messier -- in Python `key in d` is well entrenched as an idiom, and in JS `if(d.key)` misfires if the value is zero, and `if(d.key === undefined)` doesn't discriminate between a missed lookup and a stored `undefined`. Though the latter must be discouraged, right?
  - masklinn 8y ago
    > Invalid JSON parsing as `null` would be an exciting API decision, haha. PHP's json_decode does that. And yes `null` is also returned as a PHP NULL. > Though it is messier -- in Python `key in d` is well entrenched as an idiom, and in JS `if(d.key)` misfires if the value is zero Or false, or null, or the empty string, or NaN. FWIW `if (key in d)` also works in JS if d is a native object, though you need `d.has(key)` if d is an actual Map object instead.
galaxyLogic 8y ago
I think JavaScript simply got it quite wrong by trying to be way too clever. In theory it is fine to say that dividing by 0 is Infinity but what can you do with Infinity? In practice that causes the output of your program be either Infinity or NaN but the problem is that is usually never what you want. Then you want to know "Why do I get a NaN here?" and you will have to study all of your program and single step its execution to understand why you got an answer you din't want which is of little value to anybody. Problem with Infinity is you can not come back from there. It does not cancel out if you subtract it. Instead IN PRACTICE it is much better to catch errors early with the help of the type-system, unit-tests, and assertions. It is an interesting challenge: How do I define the type "Any number except zero" and have my type-system then catch divisions by zero?
- recursive 8y ago
  > I think JavaScript simply got it quite wrong by trying to be way too clever. In theory it is fine to say that dividing by 0 is Infinity but ... This wasn't javascript's idea. They're just following the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754#Exception_handling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754#Exception_handling
  - galaxyLogic 8y ago
    This IEEE spec is about Exceptions like exception for division by zero. As far as I can tell dividing by zero in JavaScript does not cause an exception, does it?
    - recursive 8y ago
      Yes, it does. And the result of that exception produces a signed infinity, unless the numerator was zero. Note that this is different than the language-level Error construct that can be thrown and caught.
jvtbatman 8y ago
Generally, I'd say that the less strict the compiler/interpreter is, the worse code you'll end up with. In my experience, Python needs a lot of external checks (i.e. linting, static analysis) to help the programmer write code that actually work as intended (and JS probably is worse). As John Carmack said: "...if you have a large enough codebase, any class of error that is syntactically legal probably exists there."
crimsonalucard 8y ago
NaN is property of the floating point specification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN The purpose of silent propagation is for the expression to be checked at the end of the overall expression rather then have every operation itself be checked. It's a speed optimization. It is by far more user friendly for an invalid operation to throw an error. For example for this following operation (100/2/2/0/2) without NaNs the system must check 4 operations 100/2, 50/2, 25/2, 12.5/0 for an error. Every arithmetic operation whether it has a division by zero or not will have to have additional checks. With NaNs the computer just runs through the entire operation with no checks and the user just explicitly does a check for a single NaN at the end. The Maybe Monad operates under the same concept when used as an output type for a division operation. The same logic applies for javascript "undefined".

setr 8y ago

I would argue to throw; there's not much good that comes out of intentionally having an error cascade through the program until reaches a throwable error, or produces incorrect results (this is true for both python and js, but the decision you're making is to allow it more than absolutely necessary for a dynamic lamguage)

lomnakkus 8y ago

The JS way is a mistake, intentional or not. Here's a little thought experiment: Your program ends up with an "undefined" in some variable 'x'. How did that happen? In JS it can happen in any number of weird and wonderful ways, e.g. you called a function which did a 'v[i]' or it could have just fallen off the end because someone forgot to check a return path, or... In Python there's much less scope what the problem could be. Since v[i] will just throw an IndexError, you know that the problem couldn't possibly be stray index or similar. That is a much better experience for finding problems in one's code.

millstone 8y ago
But JS programs must execute in uncontrolled environments, e.g. browser engines from the past and future with random extensions installed. A bondage-and-discipline language may help developers find logic bugs, but will make the users' experiences worse.
- lomnakkus 8y ago
  How is "there was a JavaScript error on this page" informational icon any worse than an order total of "undefined" or that the page just doesn't seem to be reacting to clicks? I'd argue that the former is much better UX -- at least the user isn't confused whether it's them that's doing something wrong or it's the page that just shoddily implemented.
  - millstone 8y ago
    Banker vs moon rover. B&D languages panic at the first whiff of deviation between the compile-time and runtime environments. But I loaded cnn.com, and my third-party ad blocker did god-knows-what to dozens of requests, with a bazillion unexpected undefineds, and yet the page still rendered. The web powers through!
    - lomnakkus 8y ago
      This has nothing to do with undefined vs. exceptions, sorry. You can do example the same with a powerful enough sandbox -- e.g. what WebAsm does to avoid hostile code taking over your computer. It has everything to do with sandboxing (or not). Ads being served by third parties should not be able to influence the JS running in the page.
  - codetrotter 8y ago
    > at least the user isn't confused whether it's them that's doing something wrong or it's the page that just shoddily implemented Users generally ignore all messages coming from their computers. They routinely blame their computers for doing things that the computers are not doing at all. Like, oh I can’t find the document I wrote three weeks ago -> obviously my computer is being disobedient. Anyway, I don’t blame the users. To them the computer is entirely uninteresting and they don’t want to care about the sorts of concerns that we technically minded people do. A broken page is a broken page and it doesn’t matter to the user why the page is broken. The only thing that matters to them is, can they do the thing they wanted to do or not. And like the sibling said, the web browsers are surprisingly good at handling broken code.

zachrose 8y ago

Yeah in general it’s good to avoid sometimes returning a value and sometimes undefined. There’s an equivalence you can make between a type and a mathematical set, where you say that the type is the set of all possible values for that type. In both JavaScript and math, multiplication of numbers is an operation that has a special property called closure, which means that the return type is the same as the input types. Multiply a number by another number and you will ALWAYS get a number back. The inputs and the outputs are in the same set, which means you can go nuts multiplying numbers and you’ll never have to check your values to make sure they’re still numbers; it can be safely assumed. JavaScript gives NaN a type of “number” as a clever compromise. Instead of throwing an error when multiplying a number by a non-number, JS allows multiplication to still return a “number” (`4 * ‘a’ === NaN`) and then you don’t need to ever worry about accidentally “leaving” the set of numbers (`NaN * 10 === NaN`). More likely than not though, multiplying a number and a string is just not a useful thing to do. With a good type system, a program that could wind up in a situation of multiplying a string and a number can be rejected by the compiler. So in a roundabout answer to your question, a lot of “what then?!” situations can be entirely avoided with a good type system. For the remaining situations like accessing an element in an array that may not exist, a Maybe can make a lot of sense. (Maybe Float turns out to be just like JavaScript’s numbers, but instead of NaN you have Nothing.)

kazagistar 8y ago
Closure is only good in programming if the answers it gives are always useful. Otherwise, you run into the same non local error problem that plagues nulls: the error still happens, but now it happens at some distant usage site, far away from the cause.
- zachrose 8y ago
  Good point. This is exactly what JavaScript does with NaN and the set of numbers, and errors are harder to track down because of it. Computer numbers in general have all sorts of issues like this where clean mathematical theory is broken. NaN, Infinity and -Infinity, for example, are all similar to absorbing elements[1] under multiplication in the sense that once you get that as a result, you can't do the inverse operation (division) to get back to your original inputs.

barrkel 8y ago

It's generally better to highlight the existence of an error condition sooner rather than later. Compile time is better than runtime, evaluation time is better than via explicit value inspection. Non-signalling NaNs provide an easy way of distributing an invalid value widely throughout a program's data structures before it's discovered. The only reason to go the other way, and have silent NaN propagation, is if they're expected to occur very frequently. For example, consider how awkward SQL would be if evaluating over null values triggered errors - the conditionality of expressions would need to become very elaborate. Monadic approaches to errors (Maybe, Rust's Result, that conditionally apply a function to a value only if it's not an error) blur the line between these two. Because they rely on data flow, they feel a bit like non-signalling NaNs. OTOH, evaluation generally bubbles up using monadic return types, and errors bubble up too, just like exceptions - exceptions, and consistent, universal use of monadic return types, are isomorphic and can have the same evaluation characteristics.

_hl_ 8y ago
> exceptions, and consistent, universal use of monadic return types, are isomorphic and can have the same evaluation characteristics. I feel like there is a small but important difference. Encoding exceptions in monadic return types allows the type system to guarantee that all exceptions are handled, or at least considered by the programmer. That is a very strong guarantee, especially as you put up layers and layers of foreign libraries and abstractions.

masklinn 8y ago

> This is something I wonder about JS: there are a lot of places that exceptions happen in (say) Python that just return `NaN` or `undefined` in javascript. Is it intentional? Is it a good idea? Yes and no respectively. It's intentional in the sense that the original Javascript was not intended to fault (much) because it was for basic scripting, so if one small script blew up it should not bring down the entire page's scripting. This also resulted in Javascript's exceptions facilities being very shitty (exception handling is not very flexible/convenient, and while that may have changed since — not sure — for a long time it was impossible to sub-type the native Error). However it's not really a good idea for non-trivial software systems, it makes errors much harder to notice, recover from and debug. In fact "modern" JS APIs tend to fault e.g. parsing invalid JSON raises SyntaxError, it doesn't return null or undefined; and promises and async functions will convert exceptions to failures.

repsilat 8y ago
Invalid JSON parsing as `null` would be an exciting API decision, haha. One thing I think I like about JS over Python is that empty containers are "truthy". This, combined with non-raising missed lookups, tends to be pretty ergonomic. For me, at least. Though it is messier -- in Python `key in d` is well entrenched as an idiom, and in JS `if(d.key)` misfires if the value is zero, and `if(d.key === undefined)` doesn't discriminate between a missed lookup and a stored `undefined`. Though the latter must be discouraged, right?
- masklinn 8y ago
  > Invalid JSON parsing as `null` would be an exciting API decision, haha. PHP's json_decode does that. And yes `null` is also returned as a PHP NULL. > Though it is messier -- in Python `key in d` is well entrenched as an idiom, and in JS `if(d.key)` misfires if the value is zero Or false, or null, or the empty string, or NaN. FWIW `if (key in d)` also works in JS if d is a native object, though you need `d.has(key)` if d is an actual Map object instead.

galaxyLogic 8y ago

I think JavaScript simply got it quite wrong by trying to be way too clever. In theory it is fine to say that dividing by 0 is Infinity but what can you do with Infinity? In practice that causes the output of your program be either Infinity or NaN but the problem is that is usually never what you want. Then you want to know "Why do I get a NaN here?" and you will have to study all of your program and single step its execution to understand why you got an answer you din't want which is of little value to anybody. Problem with Infinity is you can not come back from there. It does not cancel out if you subtract it. Instead IN PRACTICE it is much better to catch errors early with the help of the type-system, unit-tests, and assertions. It is an interesting challenge: How do I define the type "Any number except zero" and have my type-system then catch divisions by zero?

recursive 8y ago
> I think JavaScript simply got it quite wrong by trying to be way too clever. In theory it is fine to say that dividing by 0 is Infinity but ... This wasn't javascript's idea. They're just following the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754#Exception_handling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754#Exception_handling
- galaxyLogic 8y ago
  This IEEE spec is about Exceptions like exception for division by zero. As far as I can tell dividing by zero in JavaScript does not cause an exception, does it?
  - recursive 8y ago
    Yes, it does. And the result of that exception produces a signed infinity, unless the numerator was zero. Note that this is different than the language-level Error construct that can be thrown and caught.

jvtbatman 8y ago

Generally, I'd say that the less strict the compiler/interpreter is, the worse code you'll end up with. In my experience, Python needs a lot of external checks (i.e. linting, static analysis) to help the programmer write code that actually work as intended (and JS probably is worse). As John Carmack said: "...if you have a large enough codebase, any class of error that is syntactically legal probably exists there."

crimsonalucard 8y ago

NaN is property of the floating point specification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN The purpose of silent propagation is for the expression to be checked at the end of the overall expression rather then have every operation itself be checked. It's a speed optimization. It is by far more user friendly for an invalid operation to throw an error. For example for this following operation (100/2/2/0/2) without NaNs the system must check 4 operations 100/2, 50/2, 25/2, 12.5/0 for an error. Every arithmetic operation whether it has a division by zero or not will have to have additional checks. With NaNs the computer just runs through the entire operation with no checks and the user just explicitly does a check for a single NaN at the end. The Maybe Monad operates under the same concept when used as an output type for a division operation. The same logic applies for javascript "undefined".