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The problem is that unless your audience is steeped in category theory, they can't appreciate the irony of the situation Who needs mindshare, when you can have

The problem is that unless your audience is steeped in category theory, they can't appreciate the irony of the situation Who needs mindshare, when you can have in-jokes instead? Better to be the one everyone initially laughs at, but wind up with all the mindshare, than to be the one doing all the laughing who gets left behind.

derefr 8y ago
It's not quite an in-joke. It's in-gallows humour: something common to all transmission of hard-to-communicate knowledge. Anyone on the far side of a gulf of enlightenment—and understanding monads is an enlightenment, if a small one—knows that it's effectively impossible to actually communicate the particular thing they learned that helped them achieve enlightenment. (Well, it's not impossible to communicate what they learned; it's just that that's roughly useless to anyone else. An enlightenment is a realization that culminates only from all of a set of micro-skills being attained; and each person is missing different micro-skills to start with. You can look back and see the micro-skills you learned, and teach those, but you have no idea what micro-skills you started off already in possession of that others did not—what micro-skills you take for granted—and so you cannot teach those.) When faced with someone starting on the path to an enlightenment, who asks you to simply summarize the path for them, there's no way to actually usefully tell them. But it's kind of rude to just say nothing—and on a forum like this, equally rude to assume a role of a master verbally lashing an apprentice (ala a Zen parable) for assuming they could understand the concept without working their brain up through all the micro-skills it was missing first. So, what you do instead is, you make a joke. A joke that seems opaque at the time, but which the learner, having journeyed further down the path, will realize was the truth they sought, and exactly what they asked for—it was just a truth that was, necessarily, completely useless to them at the time. Any such truth would be. You don't make the joke to be snarky. You make the joke because you wish that, this time, it would work, and the learner would skip the path and achieve the enlightenment; that you could just reach across the gulf and bring them over. But you know it won't. The punchline of the "joke" is not played on the learner, but on the teacher: it is that the world is cruel and to teach skills that require enlightenments is to suffer knowing your students lay across this gulf, and most of what you say will miss them entirely because of the mismatch in micro-skill acquisition between you. (Though, I suppose, when the learner attempts to teach the concept themselves, and realizes the only thing they want to say is the same useless thing that was said to them—this would be the joke "paying off." That pay-off makes it sort of like a traditional joke, in the sense that choosing to "tell" it rather than simply thinking it to oneself is choosing to set the learner up for that later pay-off.)
- stcredzero 8y ago
  An enlightenment is a realization that culminates only from all of a set of micro-skills being attained There are lots of disciplines/areas of human knowledge and culture where most of the micro-skills have inherent rewards for learning them. When faced with someone starting on the path to an enlightenment, who asks you to simply summarize the path for them, there's no way to actually usefully tell them. I think that has to do more with not being motivated enough to try hard enough combined with the difficulty of summarizing. It's one thing to try to explain a paradigm-shifting insight or system to someone who has never paradigm shifted to learn something. The thing about Haskell outreach, are such failures even in the face of an audience who has previously undergone such a paradigm shift. You don't make the joke to be snarky. You make the joke because you wish that, this time, it would work, and the learner would skip the path and achieve the enlightenment How is this different from laziness? Smalltalkers similarly gave up trying to convey how their environment was different, many of them with such snarky jokes. Then years later, Chris Granger comes along with Light Table, and transmits what it is quite clearly and succinctly.
  - derefr 8y ago
    1. I perhaps forgot to mention a key thing about the enlightenment process. Most of the people being asked the question are those further down the path, but not further-down by much. Journeymen, not masters. A journeyman is someone who has acquired all the micro-skills they were missing, and has thus gone on to achieve some level of intuitive grasp of the enlightenment they sought. They "grok" the skill. A master is someone who has gone back and thoroughly weeded their mental garden of the micro-skills they started with and took for granted, and have begun (though perhaps not finished) replacing those with conscious learnings. The master desires to attain conscious handles onto each and every part of the mental schema or process they seek to understand, in order to understand the enlightenment-requiring mental skill as a system, rather than as a simple intuition. A journeyman has a sense that they know the answer—that they "are enlightened"—and this sense works well enough to guide them when they seek to use the mental skill they sought to acquire. But, because they do not understand the enlightenment-requiring mental skill as a system, only as an intuition, they can give an apprentice on the path no answer that will satisfy them. This is the "gallows humour" stage of the path. Yes, masters of the path will be able to guide apprentices. Zen koans are written by masters, and they are no gallows humour; they tilt the world enough to allow you to catch sight of the micro-skills the master was attempting to convey. (In the modern world of analytic philosophy, koans might even have a hope of being displaced by jargon-laden explanations that can be drudged through to bash the concept into one's head, like a maths textbook. That doesn't sound exciting, but it is!) Light Table is such a koan, created by a master of the path of living-memory-image reflective systems, seeking to "tilt" as many parts of the system that Smalltalk is into the light as possible. (Granger's trick was contrasting those parts to a backdrop of regular, ugly concepts like Javascript and Electron that aren't part of the enlightenment-inspiring system. The concept-handles come clear at the visible seams of the Light Table system. Whereas, in Smalltalk itself, the seams aren't visible, because the system is coherent. You can't see the muscles of the perfect average face; it's too coherent to dissect.) Putting this another way: most people who might be asked about something aren't teachers with education degrees. They're just students who already learned something and want to share what they learned. They fail because the thing is hard to share, and they don't have the skills about teaching required to realize what's making the thing hard to share and to fix it. (Those that do have such skills, but don't have the time to apply them to the concept—dissecting it and re-building it in a teachable-to-others form—usually just keep silent, rather than attempting to share their learning.) > Haskell['s journeymen] are such failures [to teach the required micro-skills] even in the face of an audience who has previously undergone such a paradigm shift. Ah, but have they? Many people have a natural mind for software engineering. They take for granted the concepts inherent in procedural code execution on a CPU or virtual machine; in parsing and lexing; even in pseudo-paradigms like OOP. Indeed, it is the rare software engineer who actually experienced any paradigm shifts regarding Computer Science (for those of us that took a degree in it.) Usually it's "easy"—meaning natural—for those of an analytical mindset. All, perhaps, except for that one class you have to take at the beginning of a CS curriculum, Discrete Maths. A lot of the SwEng "naturals" struggle at that. Because Discrete Maths is not the same thing as CS. Discrete Maths is, in fact, maths. Mathematicians are used to paradigm shifts/"englightenments" (i.e. learning systematic skills requiring working knowledge of many micro-skills). Each subfield of mathematics is essentially named for the systematic skill required to comprehend work done under its aegis. Mathematicians who read work in various sub-fields, are used to quickly achieving a journeyman's competence in the relevant systematic skills. Mathematicians who specialize, who enter a sub-field, must necessarily become masters, if they have any hope of building upon that work. They must understand the required skill fully. (They must, by cute analogy, be able to build their Light-sabers from scratch.) Most software engineers—including Haskellers—are not mathematicians. They have, other than that one time in Discrete Maths, never experienced the feeling of climbing toward an enlightenment. Even then, Discrete Maths is often the lowest grade for a lot of new CS students. They don't yet have this meta-skill of climbing toward enlightenments—of throwing themselves hard at formalized jargon using textbooks and references in an attempt to build a new systematic schema in their brain in just a few days. And they are almost never told that this is the true skill that their Discrete Maths course is there to impart into them. It's not about learning graph theory or whatever; that, just as much as a class on Operating Systems or VLSI or whatever else, is a practical, concrete skill for a software engineer. The Discrete Maths class in a CS program is about learning how to quickly learn those kinds of concepts. It's about discovering that these mental gulfs exist, and learning the skills required to cross one. If only it was taught as such ;) The reason Haskell is uniquely bad, here, is that Haskell was—perhaps problematically—constructed by mathematicians, people who had already crossed one such gulf. Haskell's design and ecosystem "reflects" enlightenment on category theory, somewhat like Smalltalk "reflects" enlightenment on living-memory-image OOP. Neither system teaches those skills, though. You don't need to cross the gulf of category-theory to intuit Haskell as a journeyman; you only do if you want to have the appreciation for the "coherent shape" of Haskell required to make coherence-preserving modifications to its feature-set. --- The long and short of the way to communicate all the Haskell "stuff" efficiently, not just monads, is to: 1. give the learner the meta-skill of Being A Student Of Mathematics (i.e. becoming a journeyman in new systematic skills by poring over textbooks and doing problems); 2. throw a Category Theory textbook at the learner, who is now equipped to digest it. Anything less is laziness—though not necessarily on the part of the teacher ;)
the_af 8y ago
> "Who needs mindshare, when you can have in-jokes instead?" It's a joke, but more importantly, it's a joke by and for people who are already familiar enough with Haskell. It's not a serious attempt at communicating something useful about the language; these attempts exist, but this joke is not one of them. Absolutely no-one makes this joke to beginners. You only make this joke to someone who already has an understanding of Haskell. It's not a common joke, either. It's like those obfuscated C examples. Nobody uses them to teach beginners anything, and it'd be a mistake to ask "why do all these C programmers keep writing purposefully obfuscated code to scare beginners!?". Purposefully obfuscated C code, much like the Haskell joke, is not aimed at beginners.

derefr 8y ago

It's not quite an in-joke. It's in-gallows humour: something common to all transmission of hard-to-communicate knowledge. Anyone on the far side of a gulf of enlightenment—and understanding monads is an enlightenment, if a small one—knows that it's effectively impossible to actually communicate the particular thing they learned that helped them achieve enlightenment. (Well, it's not impossible to communicate what they learned; it's just that that's roughly useless to anyone else. An enlightenment is a realization that culminates only from all of a set of micro-skills being attained; and each person is missing different micro-skills to start with. You can look back and see the micro-skills you learned, and teach those, but you have no idea what micro-skills you started off already in possession of that others did not—what micro-skills you take for granted—and so you cannot teach those.) When faced with someone starting on the path to an enlightenment, who asks you to simply summarize the path for them, there's no way to actually usefully tell them. But it's kind of rude to just say nothing—and on a forum like this, equally rude to assume a role of a master verbally lashing an apprentice (ala a Zen parable) for assuming they could understand the concept without working their brain up through all the micro-skills it was missing first. So, what you do instead is, you make a joke. A joke that seems opaque at the time, but which the learner, having journeyed further down the path, will realize was the truth they sought, and exactly what they asked for—it was just a truth that was, necessarily, completely useless to them at the time. Any such truth would be. You don't make the joke to be snarky. You make the joke because you wish that, this time, it would work, and the learner would skip the path and achieve the enlightenment; that you could just reach across the gulf and bring them over. But you know it won't. The punchline of the "joke" is not played on the learner, but on the teacher: it is that the world is cruel and to teach skills that require enlightenments is to suffer knowing your students lay across this gulf, and most of what you say will miss them entirely because of the mismatch in micro-skill acquisition between you. (Though, I suppose, when the learner attempts to teach the concept themselves, and realizes the only thing they want to say is the same useless thing that was said to them—this would be the joke "paying off." That pay-off makes it sort of like a traditional joke, in the sense that choosing to "tell" it rather than simply thinking it to oneself is choosing to set the learner up for that later pay-off.)

stcredzero 8y ago
An enlightenment is a realization that culminates only from all of a set of micro-skills being attained There are lots of disciplines/areas of human knowledge and culture where most of the micro-skills have inherent rewards for learning them. When faced with someone starting on the path to an enlightenment, who asks you to simply summarize the path for them, there's no way to actually usefully tell them. I think that has to do more with not being motivated enough to try hard enough combined with the difficulty of summarizing. It's one thing to try to explain a paradigm-shifting insight or system to someone who has never paradigm shifted to learn something. The thing about Haskell outreach, are such failures even in the face of an audience who has previously undergone such a paradigm shift. You don't make the joke to be snarky. You make the joke because you wish that, this time, it would work, and the learner would skip the path and achieve the enlightenment How is this different from laziness? Smalltalkers similarly gave up trying to convey how their environment was different, many of them with such snarky jokes. Then years later, Chris Granger comes along with Light Table, and transmits what it is quite clearly and succinctly.
- derefr 8y ago
  1. I perhaps forgot to mention a key thing about the enlightenment process. Most of the people being asked the question are those further down the path, but not further-down by much. Journeymen, not masters. A journeyman is someone who has acquired all the micro-skills they were missing, and has thus gone on to achieve some level of intuitive grasp of the enlightenment they sought. They "grok" the skill. A master is someone who has gone back and thoroughly weeded their mental garden of the micro-skills they started with and took for granted, and have begun (though perhaps not finished) replacing those with conscious learnings. The master desires to attain conscious handles onto each and every part of the mental schema or process they seek to understand, in order to understand the enlightenment-requiring mental skill as a system, rather than as a simple intuition. A journeyman has a sense that they know the answer—that they "are enlightened"—and this sense works well enough to guide them when they seek to use the mental skill they sought to acquire. But, because they do not understand the enlightenment-requiring mental skill as a system, only as an intuition, they can give an apprentice on the path no answer that will satisfy them. This is the "gallows humour" stage of the path. Yes, masters of the path will be able to guide apprentices. Zen koans are written by masters, and they are no gallows humour; they tilt the world enough to allow you to catch sight of the micro-skills the master was attempting to convey. (In the modern world of analytic philosophy, koans might even have a hope of being displaced by jargon-laden explanations that can be drudged through to bash the concept into one's head, like a maths textbook. That doesn't sound exciting, but it is!) Light Table is such a koan, created by a master of the path of living-memory-image reflective systems, seeking to "tilt" as many parts of the system that Smalltalk is into the light as possible. (Granger's trick was contrasting those parts to a backdrop of regular, ugly concepts like Javascript and Electron that aren't part of the enlightenment-inspiring system. The concept-handles come clear at the visible seams of the Light Table system. Whereas, in Smalltalk itself, the seams aren't visible, because the system is coherent. You can't see the muscles of the perfect average face; it's too coherent to dissect.) Putting this another way: most people who might be asked about something aren't teachers with education degrees. They're just students who already learned something and want to share what they learned. They fail because the thing is hard to share, and they don't have the skills about teaching required to realize what's making the thing hard to share and to fix it. (Those that do have such skills, but don't have the time to apply them to the concept—dissecting it and re-building it in a teachable-to-others form—usually just keep silent, rather than attempting to share their learning.) > Haskell['s journeymen] are such failures [to teach the required micro-skills] even in the face of an audience who has previously undergone such a paradigm shift. Ah, but have they? Many people have a natural mind for software engineering. They take for granted the concepts inherent in procedural code execution on a CPU or virtual machine; in parsing and lexing; even in pseudo-paradigms like OOP. Indeed, it is the rare software engineer who actually experienced any paradigm shifts regarding Computer Science (for those of us that took a degree in it.) Usually it's "easy"—meaning natural—for those of an analytical mindset. All, perhaps, except for that one class you have to take at the beginning of a CS curriculum, Discrete Maths. A lot of the SwEng "naturals" struggle at that. Because Discrete Maths is not the same thing as CS. Discrete Maths is, in fact, maths. Mathematicians are used to paradigm shifts/"englightenments" (i.e. learning systematic skills requiring working knowledge of many micro-skills). Each subfield of mathematics is essentially named for the systematic skill required to comprehend work done under its aegis. Mathematicians who read work in various sub-fields, are used to quickly achieving a journeyman's competence in the relevant systematic skills. Mathematicians who specialize, who enter a sub-field, must necessarily become masters, if they have any hope of building upon that work. They must understand the required skill fully. (They must, by cute analogy, be able to build their Light-sabers from scratch.) Most software engineers—including Haskellers—are not mathematicians. They have, other than that one time in Discrete Maths, never experienced the feeling of climbing toward an enlightenment. Even then, Discrete Maths is often the lowest grade for a lot of new CS students. They don't yet have this meta-skill of climbing toward enlightenments—of throwing themselves hard at formalized jargon using textbooks and references in an attempt to build a new systematic schema in their brain in just a few days. And they are almost never told that this is the true skill that their Discrete Maths course is there to impart into them. It's not about learning graph theory or whatever; that, just as much as a class on Operating Systems or VLSI or whatever else, is a practical, concrete skill for a software engineer. The Discrete Maths class in a CS program is about learning how to quickly learn those kinds of concepts. It's about discovering that these mental gulfs exist, and learning the skills required to cross one. If only it was taught as such ;) The reason Haskell is uniquely bad, here, is that Haskell was—perhaps problematically—constructed by mathematicians, people who had already crossed one such gulf. Haskell's design and ecosystem "reflects" enlightenment on category theory, somewhat like Smalltalk "reflects" enlightenment on living-memory-image OOP. Neither system teaches those skills, though. You don't need to cross the gulf of category-theory to intuit Haskell as a journeyman; you only do if you want to have the appreciation for the "coherent shape" of Haskell required to make coherence-preserving modifications to its feature-set. --- The long and short of the way to communicate all the Haskell "stuff" efficiently, not just monads, is to: 1. give the learner the meta-skill of Being A Student Of Mathematics (i.e. becoming a journeyman in new systematic skills by poring over textbooks and doing problems); 2. throw a Category Theory textbook at the learner, who is now equipped to digest it. Anything less is laziness—though not necessarily on the part of the teacher ;)

the_af 8y ago

> "Who needs mindshare, when you can have in-jokes instead?" It's a joke, but more importantly, it's a joke by and for people who are already familiar enough with Haskell. It's not a serious attempt at communicating something useful about the language; these attempts exist, but this joke is not one of them. Absolutely no-one makes this joke to beginners. You only make this joke to someone who already has an understanding of Haskell. It's not a common joke, either. It's like those obfuscated C examples. Nobody uses them to teach beginners anything, and it'd be a mistake to ask "why do all these C programmers keep writing purposefully obfuscated code to scare beginners!?". Purposefully obfuscated C code, much like the Haskell joke, is not aimed at beginners.