5 ms·

I agree with Steven Gibson. The biggest defense we can have on this is autoupdating routers. At a minimum, just restart at some fixed time after an update is do

by 0xfeba 8y ago

I agree with Steven Gibson. The biggest defense we can have on this is autoupdating routers. At a minimum, just restart at some fixed time after an update is downloaded. More fancy would be dynamically calculating a low usage day and time to restart. But this would also involve the router manufacturer keeping it up-to-date as well. Which gets me thinking... Does a SOHO (or any) device exist that effectively runs two firmware instances at once to allow minimal downtime as it switches over to new firmware? I imagine larger routers do, or at least, two identical physical routers accomplishes as much.

Yizahi 8y ago
You will probably need more complex hardware to accommodate this and it will be much more complex to implement correctly. For SOHO it is better to simply optimize for quicker boot process. For homes it doesn't even matter, just reboot the thing automatically on schedule during night. My expensive router does this and it is not hard or expensive to implement in all new models, regardless of their price.
- j45 8y ago
  Solid firmwares like OpenWRT run on a lot of routers already. It should be possible to have some amount of regular updates, if not automatic.
  - securityn0w 8y ago
    Do you realize that OpenWrt is not very secure and DD-Wrt is even worse?
    - j45 8y ago
      Yup, I do. Have used it on and off since my Wrt54gs. My point was about availability of updates. Third partu firmwares seem to have a lot more updates than factory ones. LEDE also merged back with OpenWRT so I hope that improves things. Rather than poke holes, do you have any suggestions?
    - bigiain 8y ago
      Have you got links or keywords I can search for details about that? (I'm in the middle of a decision about moving to an OpenWRT or Mikrotik router...)
    - acidburnNSA 8y ago
      One thing I hated about ddwrt was how hard it was to get a TLS download and/or hash. Like seriously, if I'm putting this on my router I don't want it coming down by http!
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - OhSnapppp 8y ago
      Why do you say openwrt is not secure? Just curious to learn.
    - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
      So we should just stick with the inscrutable pre-installed proprietary firmware?
    - flas9sd 8y ago
      With a current kernel and updated userland? the no-password root ssh after flashing is vulnerable to others in your local network yes, keep it offline until pubkey-only auth is configured. To save against dropbear exploits, bind ssh to the internal-ethernet interface and if installed, access uhttpd/LuCI only via this tunnel. Other than that it seems equal to other default distribution installs. Apparmor/selinux steps up ubuntus/fedoras game yes, I don't know how much of this has been a concern yet in OpenWrt, a recent talk touches shortly on it. It seems to be a clean, easy-to-configure distribution that is alive and well after the remerge that just got a recent stable-release. Secondary vectors like package-system are a factor. But despite being reliant on the vendor, it buildable by the end-user. I applaud their efforts.
wtallis 8y ago
> Does a SOHO (or any) device exist that effectively runs two firmware instances at once to allow minimal downtime as it switches over to new firmware? There are plenty of routers that have two OS partitions so that a new version can be installed without interrupting the currently-running version, but you still need a full reboot to switch to running the new OS.
inetknght 8y ago
If you start making my router autoupdate and autoreboot like Windows does you will alienate a very large number of customers. Instead: stop making shit routers.
- Yizahi 8y ago
  Unlike with Windows I seriously doubt that. Windows reboot is unpredictable and a) can break your work flow and b) can possible corrupt your unsaved data, calculations etc. Router reboot is simply a network outage for 2-3 minutes and routers that can do auto-update also always support configuration it. E.g. Reboot at 3am in the night, only on Monday and only if there had been new firmware in the last week. I can assure you that it is neither disrupting nor noticeable at all. Router boots neither break work flows nor corrupt your data (in SOHO segment).
  - inetknght 8y ago
    You assume updating the router firmware won't break or reset your configuration, and won't add new vulnerabilities you haven't already mitigated.
- 0xfeba 8y ago
  It could and likely would be configurable. The problem is the people who plug the router in with the default password and forget about it. This would solve that while leaving it configurable for technical users.
bubblethink 8y ago
>.. Does a SOHO (or any) device exist that effectively runs two firmware instances at once to allow minimal downtime as it switches over to new firmware? I imagine larger routers do, or at least, two identical physical routers accomplishes as much. Quite likely that google-wifi (chromeos) does, or at least is capabale of doing that given good enough hardware. All of google's products have moved to this sort of A/B layout.

by 0xfeba 8y ago

Yizahi 8y ago

You will probably need more complex hardware to accommodate this and it will be much more complex to implement correctly. For SOHO it is better to simply optimize for quicker boot process. For homes it doesn't even matter, just reboot the thing automatically on schedule during night. My expensive router does this and it is not hard or expensive to implement in all new models, regardless of their price.

j45 8y ago
Solid firmwares like OpenWRT run on a lot of routers already. It should be possible to have some amount of regular updates, if not automatic.
- securityn0w 8y ago
  Do you realize that OpenWrt is not very secure and DD-Wrt is even worse?
  - j45 8y ago
    Yup, I do. Have used it on and off since my Wrt54gs. My point was about availability of updates. Third partu firmwares seem to have a lot more updates than factory ones. LEDE also merged back with OpenWRT so I hope that improves things. Rather than poke holes, do you have any suggestions?
  - bigiain 8y ago
    Have you got links or keywords I can search for details about that? (I'm in the middle of a decision about moving to an OpenWRT or Mikrotik router...)
  - acidburnNSA 8y ago
    One thing I hated about ddwrt was how hard it was to get a TLS download and/or hash. Like seriously, if I'm putting this on my router I don't want it coming down by http!
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - OhSnapppp 8y ago
    Why do you say openwrt is not secure? Just curious to learn.
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    So we should just stick with the inscrutable pre-installed proprietary firmware?
  - flas9sd 8y ago
    With a current kernel and updated userland? the no-password root ssh after flashing is vulnerable to others in your local network yes, keep it offline until pubkey-only auth is configured. To save against dropbear exploits, bind ssh to the internal-ethernet interface and if installed, access uhttpd/LuCI only via this tunnel. Other than that it seems equal to other default distribution installs. Apparmor/selinux steps up ubuntus/fedoras game yes, I don't know how much of this has been a concern yet in OpenWrt, a recent talk touches shortly on it. It seems to be a clean, easy-to-configure distribution that is alive and well after the remerge that just got a recent stable-release. Secondary vectors like package-system are a factor. But despite being reliant on the vendor, it buildable by the end-user. I applaud their efforts.

wtallis 8y ago

> Does a SOHO (or any) device exist that effectively runs two firmware instances at once to allow minimal downtime as it switches over to new firmware? There are plenty of routers that have two OS partitions so that a new version can be installed without interrupting the currently-running version, but you still need a full reboot to switch to running the new OS.

inetknght 8y ago

If you start making my router autoupdate and autoreboot like Windows does you will alienate a very large number of customers. Instead: stop making shit routers.

Yizahi 8y ago
Unlike with Windows I seriously doubt that. Windows reboot is unpredictable and a) can break your work flow and b) can possible corrupt your unsaved data, calculations etc. Router reboot is simply a network outage for 2-3 minutes and routers that can do auto-update also always support configuration it. E.g. Reboot at 3am in the night, only on Monday and only if there had been new firmware in the last week. I can assure you that it is neither disrupting nor noticeable at all. Router boots neither break work flows nor corrupt your data (in SOHO segment).
- inetknght 8y ago
  You assume updating the router firmware won't break or reset your configuration, and won't add new vulnerabilities you haven't already mitigated.
0xfeba 8y ago
It could and likely would be configurable. The problem is the people who plug the router in with the default password and forget about it. This would solve that while leaving it configurable for technical users.

bubblethink 8y ago

>.. Does a SOHO (or any) device exist that effectively runs two firmware instances at once to allow minimal downtime as it switches over to new firmware? I imagine larger routers do, or at least, two identical physical routers accomplishes as much. Quite likely that google-wifi (chromeos) does, or at least is capabale of doing that given good enough hardware. All of google's products have moved to this sort of A/B layout.