5 ms·

I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insan

by zapita 8y ago

I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insanity, and the trend has only accelerated since.

jbrun 8y ago
Of course. Empires collapse from within.
frockington 8y ago
As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors
- astebbin 8y ago
  >I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors Could you elaborate on this? My impression was that China has recently been bullying its neighbors, particularly Vietnam and to some extent the Philippines, over oil and gas deposits in the South China Sea. I can't imagine that's great for regional stability. I also wonder if many Americans would want China to take on a leadership role with respect to Taiwan. I doubt the Taiwanese would take such a view.
  - Leary 8y ago
    Border tensions is only a minor part of life in Asia, one that is over reported by western media. Trade and infrastructure are more important concerns.
    - simmanian 8y ago
      Could you elaborate? My take is that border tensions are definitely related to trade and it's not taken lightly by any Asian nation.
    - rando_supreme 8y ago
      I don't mean to call you out... but for an 11 day old account, you seem to have a fair amount of pro China trolling material posted. Why would border tensions be "over reported." It's a matter of allied sovereignty?
  - jewelthief91 8y ago
    How do the American people benefit from protecting Vietnam and the Philippines? Not to sound trollish, but I genuinely do not see why spending billions in the region and antagonizing China really helps us.
    - astebbin 8y ago
      As I understand it, an enormous percentage of global trade sails through the South China Sea. From a pragmatic standpoint, it behooves American interests to support the Vietnamese and Philippine territorial claims so that one nation (China) does not militarily and/or politically dominate such a vital trade route. From an idealistic standpoint, America supports the notions of state sovereignty and the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea simply out of principle. Like Apple’s stance on customer data privacy, the U.S. government defends freedom as a matter of pragmatism first, and then talks up the altruistic angle :)
- grezql 8y ago
  China is a mass-copying, intelectual property stealing, communist dictatorship. The other countries in Asia dont like them. China is the mordor of Asia
  - Leary 8y ago
    http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-2-chinas-image/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-2-chinas-image/
  - hupe_ 8y ago
    This us VS them mentality, amplified/reinforced by social media, 24*7 news, celebs, politicians et al is doing the most unnecessary damage.
    - grezql 8y ago
      who do you mean by 'us'? I was born in one of the asian countries China is trying to influence with its cheap plastic copies. Everything they touch there is ruined.
  - dang 8y ago
    Nationalistic flamewar will get your account banned here. Can you please not post like this to HN? You did it elsewhere recently as well, which is a problem. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - grezql 8y ago
      fine
- posting2fast 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17644657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17644657 > The Uighurs see themselves as a minority facing cultural, religious and economic discrimination. When Xinjiang was incorporated into the People's Republic of China in 1949, they comprised roughly 80 percent of the region's population. Controlled migration to Xinjiang of Han Chinese has reduced this share to 45 percent [..] > Anyone with a potentially suspicious data trail can be detained. The government has built up a grid of hundreds of re-education camps. Tens of thousands of people have disappeared into them in recent months. Zenz estimates the number to be closer to hundreds of thousands. More precise figures are difficult to obtain. Censorship in Xinjiang is the strictest in China and its authorities the most inscrutable. [..] > Normal journalistic research in Kashgar is inconceivable. No one wants to talk. A Uighur human rights activist who met up with us four years ago didn't respond to a single one of our text messages. His phone number is no longer listed. As we later learned, he disappeared months ago. But whether he was thrown into a re-education camp or prison is unknown. [..] > Every family begins with 100 points, one person affected by the system tells us. But anyone with contacts or relatives abroad, especially in Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt or Malaysia, is punished by losing points. A person with fewer than 60 points is in danger. One wrong word, a prayer or one telephone call too many and they could be sent to "school" in no time. Bring "stability" to the Middle East? What the US did and does in the Middle East is not something any other nation can solve for them; bring those who waged wars of aggression to justice, show genuine good will towards those you mistreated, that's something any nation owes either way (it's not like many European nations don't have a lot to make up for, for example). You're responsible for not making it worse, and owning your shit. That's not just what "number one" must do, even the smallest must do it. Others are responsible for sorting out their mess. You don't have to bring peace to the Middle East, just not more war. You don't have to bring democracy to China, just don't look the other way or even help rationalize and justify it.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    > You don't have to bring democracy to China, just don't look the other way or even help rationalize and justify it. And isn't that exactly what most nations are doing ? Especially European countries and the EU, and more so as time goes on.
FLUX-YOU 8y ago
Not sure I agree 9/11 was when it started. We were still cooperating with allies and other countries and still maintaining non-war stuff. Trump is when the bridge burning started and when America really lost its stature on the world stage. If it was declining since 9/11, trump took that gradual trend and sent it straight down.
- merpnderp 8y ago
  Exactly the same sort of FUD was stated when Bush was president. Trump is strengthening NATO, is in the process of renegotiating several trade treaties which appear to be well received by all sides, and has made some unprecedented progress with N. Korea, while building a coalition of Arab states to counter Iran and Russia in the Middle East, plus putting pressure on Europe to lessen their dependance on Russian energy. I'm sure I'll be down voted for stating facts, but that's just the times - people hate facts.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    Trump is "strengthening NATO" by telling the other members to pull their own weight, or the US will walk away. That may in fact strengthen NATO, if the other members do what Trump wants them to. If they don't, though, it could destroy NATO. My impression is that Trump is negotiating completely differently than any previous US president. He's throwing extreme positions out there as a starting point, then trying to negotiate back to something reasonable. (Much of the outrage in the press is directed at his opening statements - both content and style - not at the end position.) This approach may work, if others adjust to his style. But international diplomacy is not like business negotiations, and he may wind up alienating countries that he really needs to keep as friends.
    - bbstevecou 8y ago
      He's merely negotiating from a position of power; US has the biggest GDP of any country. and has the largest consumer market (12T) vs EU (9T). No country is stupid enough to not want access to this market - they might be upset for concessions. But to walk away? no way.
yread 8y ago
I think people are expecting some grand event and suddenly next minute China is dominating. Of course it's not going to be like that! US overtook UK in GDP per capita in 1860s yet it took another 50 years or more before the dominance became clear and 100 years before it became overwhelming
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  As technology increases connections between actors in the global economy, speed of change seems to be increasing as well. While I agree that the change won’t be a “grand event”, I don’t think it’ll take anywhere near half a century to happen. I expect it’ll happen over a decade or less and will largely be invisible to US consumers until the larger effects of our weakened currency become apparent. I expect the rise of China as the dominant economy will be rapid and will take most people by surprise - barring, of course, a major downturn in either major economy.

by zapita 8y ago

jbrun 8y ago

Of course. Empires collapse from within.

frockington 8y ago

As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors

astebbin 8y ago
>I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors Could you elaborate on this? My impression was that China has recently been bullying its neighbors, particularly Vietnam and to some extent the Philippines, over oil and gas deposits in the South China Sea. I can't imagine that's great for regional stability. I also wonder if many Americans would want China to take on a leadership role with respect to Taiwan. I doubt the Taiwanese would take such a view.
- Leary 8y ago
  Border tensions is only a minor part of life in Asia, one that is over reported by western media. Trade and infrastructure are more important concerns.
  - simmanian 8y ago
    Could you elaborate? My take is that border tensions are definitely related to trade and it's not taken lightly by any Asian nation.
  - rando_supreme 8y ago
    I don't mean to call you out... but for an 11 day old account, you seem to have a fair amount of pro China trolling material posted. Why would border tensions be "over reported." It's a matter of allied sovereignty?
- jewelthief91 8y ago
  How do the American people benefit from protecting Vietnam and the Philippines? Not to sound trollish, but I genuinely do not see why spending billions in the region and antagonizing China really helps us.
  - astebbin 8y ago
    As I understand it, an enormous percentage of global trade sails through the South China Sea. From a pragmatic standpoint, it behooves American interests to support the Vietnamese and Philippine territorial claims so that one nation (China) does not militarily and/or politically dominate such a vital trade route. From an idealistic standpoint, America supports the notions of state sovereignty and the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea simply out of principle. Like Apple’s stance on customer data privacy, the U.S. government defends freedom as a matter of pragmatism first, and then talks up the altruistic angle :)
grezql 8y ago
China is a mass-copying, intelectual property stealing, communist dictatorship. The other countries in Asia dont like them. China is the mordor of Asia
- Leary 8y ago
  http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-2-chinas-image/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-2-chinas-image/
- hupe_ 8y ago
  This us VS them mentality, amplified/reinforced by social media, 24*7 news, celebs, politicians et al is doing the most unnecessary damage.
  - grezql 8y ago
    who do you mean by 'us'? I was born in one of the asian countries China is trying to influence with its cheap plastic copies. Everything they touch there is ruined.
- dang 8y ago
  Nationalistic flamewar will get your account banned here. Can you please not post like this to HN? You did it elsewhere recently as well, which is a problem. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - grezql 8y ago
    fine
posting2fast 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17644657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17644657 > The Uighurs see themselves as a minority facing cultural, religious and economic discrimination. When Xinjiang was incorporated into the People's Republic of China in 1949, they comprised roughly 80 percent of the region's population. Controlled migration to Xinjiang of Han Chinese has reduced this share to 45 percent [..] > Anyone with a potentially suspicious data trail can be detained. The government has built up a grid of hundreds of re-education camps. Tens of thousands of people have disappeared into them in recent months. Zenz estimates the number to be closer to hundreds of thousands. More precise figures are difficult to obtain. Censorship in Xinjiang is the strictest in China and its authorities the most inscrutable. [..] > Normal journalistic research in Kashgar is inconceivable. No one wants to talk. A Uighur human rights activist who met up with us four years ago didn't respond to a single one of our text messages. His phone number is no longer listed. As we later learned, he disappeared months ago. But whether he was thrown into a re-education camp or prison is unknown. [..] > Every family begins with 100 points, one person affected by the system tells us. But anyone with contacts or relatives abroad, especially in Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt or Malaysia, is punished by losing points. A person with fewer than 60 points is in danger. One wrong word, a prayer or one telephone call too many and they could be sent to "school" in no time. Bring "stability" to the Middle East? What the US did and does in the Middle East is not something any other nation can solve for them; bring those who waged wars of aggression to justice, show genuine good will towards those you mistreated, that's something any nation owes either way (it's not like many European nations don't have a lot to make up for, for example). You're responsible for not making it worse, and owning your shit. That's not just what "number one" must do, even the smallest must do it. Others are responsible for sorting out their mess. You don't have to bring peace to the Middle East, just not more war. You don't have to bring democracy to China, just don't look the other way or even help rationalize and justify it.
- candiodari 8y ago
  > You don't have to bring democracy to China, just don't look the other way or even help rationalize and justify it. And isn't that exactly what most nations are doing ? Especially European countries and the EU, and more so as time goes on.

FLUX-YOU 8y ago

Not sure I agree 9/11 was when it started. We were still cooperating with allies and other countries and still maintaining non-war stuff. Trump is when the bridge burning started and when America really lost its stature on the world stage. If it was declining since 9/11, trump took that gradual trend and sent it straight down.

merpnderp 8y ago
Exactly the same sort of FUD was stated when Bush was president. Trump is strengthening NATO, is in the process of renegotiating several trade treaties which appear to be well received by all sides, and has made some unprecedented progress with N. Korea, while building a coalition of Arab states to counter Iran and Russia in the Middle East, plus putting pressure on Europe to lessen their dependance on Russian energy. I'm sure I'll be down voted for stating facts, but that's just the times - people hate facts.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Trump is "strengthening NATO" by telling the other members to pull their own weight, or the US will walk away. That may in fact strengthen NATO, if the other members do what Trump wants them to. If they don't, though, it could destroy NATO. My impression is that Trump is negotiating completely differently than any previous US president. He's throwing extreme positions out there as a starting point, then trying to negotiate back to something reasonable. (Much of the outrage in the press is directed at his opening statements - both content and style - not at the end position.) This approach may work, if others adjust to his style. But international diplomacy is not like business negotiations, and he may wind up alienating countries that he really needs to keep as friends.
  - bbstevecou 8y ago
    He's merely negotiating from a position of power; US has the biggest GDP of any country. and has the largest consumer market (12T) vs EU (9T). No country is stupid enough to not want access to this market - they might be upset for concessions. But to walk away? no way.

yread 8y ago

I think people are expecting some grand event and suddenly next minute China is dominating. Of course it's not going to be like that! US overtook UK in GDP per capita in 1860s yet it took another 50 years or more before the dominance became clear and 100 years before it became overwhelming

LyndsySimon 8y ago
As technology increases connections between actors in the global economy, speed of change seems to be increasing as well. While I agree that the change won’t be a “grand event”, I don’t think it’ll take anywhere near half a century to happen. I expect it’ll happen over a decade or less and will largely be invisible to US consumers until the larger effects of our weakened currency become apparent. I expect the rise of China as the dominant economy will be rapid and will take most people by surprise - barring, of course, a major downturn in either major economy.