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We are very far away from the inherent limitations of measurement in this case though. Eventually we will hit those limits and have to throw up our hands and sa

We are very far away from the inherent limitations of measurement in this case though. Eventually we will hit those limits and have to throw up our hands and say “we’ve done our best”, but there are lots of big, well-documented effects of individual biases, which end up aggregated into systems and institutions in various ways, the effects of which are readily measurable. > Isn't it better to treat people as individuals? This is an equally impossible goal. The system is already unfair. You want to preserve the current unfairness. I think we should instead calibrate the unfairness to optimize for undoing the weirdness caused by humanity’s awful history of subjugating, robbing, and denying the rights of various kinds of people over many centuries. People born today experience various benefits and drawbacks related to conditions completely beyond their control. If we have privilege this is the god damn least we can do.

belorn 8y ago
>> Isn't it better to treat people as individuals? > This is an equally impossible goal. For being such impossible goal it seem strange then that 21th century society is basically built around that exact concept. Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. Even education here in Sweden is by law now individualized and each teacher must teach to the ability of each individual student (a new law since a decade ago). A few hundred years ago that was not the case. If a person were of the lower class then they were treated as such. Government was not expected to operate on anything except category of people, and the idea of treat people as individuals was seen as indeed impossible. Education in particular was extremely bound by this idea, and a person worth was categorized and put in predefined box from a very young age. However impossible it is to treat people as individuals, it is better to do so and fail rather then to return to the old ways. If you get a wave of low economic immigrants should we throw up our hands and say “we’ve done our best” with individual assessment in the legal system and just prosecute based on class, or should we double up on it and try to do better? The political winds here is swinging, and I honestly hope that treating people as individuals wins over any attempt of short-term gain from treating people based on class. A person born under low economic class should not have their life hindered because others before them of same low economical class had a higher rate of crime that higher economical classes. That would be a failure of society to treat people as individuals. History does not dictate the future and it doesn't create any benefits and drawbacks unless we treat people based on category and class rather then individuals.
- themarkn 8y ago
  > Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. ... these are all examples of places where bias is rampant. Banks, courts, government assistance, insurance premiums, and even medical care are not delivered to all individuals equally. Not at all. Not remotely. Through activism and lawsuits that these areas have made strides towards fairness... but you seem to be holding them up as an example of treating people as individuals “done right” or “done successfully”. To briefly take these one by one: > Banks lend out money based on it. - banks had to be forced to do this. > Courts make judgement based on it. - this is laughable. The legal system in the US punishes African Americans more strongly that Caucasians for the same crimes. > Government gives out social support based on it. - maybe? > Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assesment - doctors provide more medication for pain at the same level to white patients vs black patients. Proxies for race are all over insurance. Women had to pay more for healthcare until very recent. Without active efforts that were made over many years to tip the scales and correct these bad outcomes, all of this would be much much worse. > History does not dictate the future and it doesn't create any benefits and drawbacks unless we treat people based on category and class rather then individuals. I respectfully suggest that the above statement is completely incoherent with reality, and represents weird wishful thinking.
  - belorn 8y ago
    So you want to return to the old ways where banks look at gender, race and economic class? Where courts make predefined judgment and don't even bother to giver a person their day in court? Where government make one size fit all decision based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation? Where insurance companies refuse insurance based on race? Where doctors use force sterilization, or outright refuse service based on race or economical class? Where kids of low economical class is not allowed to go to school. > Through activism and lawsuits that these areas have made strides towards fairness... but you seem to be holding them up as an example of treating people as individuals “done right” or “done successfully”. Through equal respectfully suggestion, the above statement is completely incoherent with reality of today, and represents weird negative thinking. The improvement on those area are real, and suggesting that the old ways are better is sad. > I respectfully suggest ... If you are trying to insult someone don't bother to wrap it up like that. If you want a thread full of insults then just insult, and if you do not want that then rethink what you wrote and why you wrote it.

belorn 8y ago

>> Isn't it better to treat people as individuals? > This is an equally impossible goal. For being such impossible goal it seem strange then that 21th century society is basically built around that exact concept. Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. Even education here in Sweden is by law now individualized and each teacher must teach to the ability of each individual student (a new law since a decade ago). A few hundred years ago that was not the case. If a person were of the lower class then they were treated as such. Government was not expected to operate on anything except category of people, and the idea of treat people as individuals was seen as indeed impossible. Education in particular was extremely bound by this idea, and a person worth was categorized and put in predefined box from a very young age. However impossible it is to treat people as individuals, it is better to do so and fail rather then to return to the old ways. If you get a wave of low economic immigrants should we throw up our hands and say “we’ve done our best” with individual assessment in the legal system and just prosecute based on class, or should we double up on it and try to do better? The political winds here is swinging, and I honestly hope that treating people as individuals wins over any attempt of short-term gain from treating people based on class. A person born under low economic class should not have their life hindered because others before them of same low economical class had a higher rate of crime that higher economical classes. That would be a failure of society to treat people as individuals. History does not dictate the future and it doesn't create any benefits and drawbacks unless we treat people based on category and class rather then individuals.

themarkn 8y ago
> Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. ... these are all examples of places where bias is rampant. Banks, courts, government assistance, insurance premiums, and even medical care are not delivered to all individuals equally. Not at all. Not remotely. Through activism and lawsuits that these areas have made strides towards fairness... but you seem to be holding them up as an example of treating people as individuals “done right” or “done successfully”. To briefly take these one by one: > Banks lend out money based on it. - banks had to be forced to do this. > Courts make judgement based on it. - this is laughable. The legal system in the US punishes African Americans more strongly that Caucasians for the same crimes. > Government gives out social support based on it. - maybe? > Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assesment - doctors provide more medication for pain at the same level to white patients vs black patients. Proxies for race are all over insurance. Women had to pay more for healthcare until very recent. Without active efforts that were made over many years to tip the scales and correct these bad outcomes, all of this would be much much worse. > History does not dictate the future and it doesn't create any benefits and drawbacks unless we treat people based on category and class rather then individuals. I respectfully suggest that the above statement is completely incoherent with reality, and represents weird wishful thinking.
- belorn 8y ago
  So you want to return to the old ways where banks look at gender, race and economic class? Where courts make predefined judgment and don't even bother to giver a person their day in court? Where government make one size fit all decision based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation? Where insurance companies refuse insurance based on race? Where doctors use force sterilization, or outright refuse service based on race or economical class? Where kids of low economical class is not allowed to go to school. > Through activism and lawsuits that these areas have made strides towards fairness... but you seem to be holding them up as an example of treating people as individuals “done right” or “done successfully”. Through equal respectfully suggestion, the above statement is completely incoherent with reality of today, and represents weird negative thinking. The improvement on those area are real, and suggesting that the old ways are better is sad. > I respectfully suggest ... If you are trying to insult someone don't bother to wrap it up like that. If you want a thread full of insults then just insult, and if you do not want that then rethink what you wrote and why you wrote it.