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(Mostly talking about SBCL) Mature native code compilation (including runtime assembler), type declarations that lead to optimizations in generated code, SBCL

(Mostly talking about SBCL) Mature native code compilation (including runtime assembler), type declarations that lead to optimizations in generated code, SBCL compiler can use declared types for compile-time type checks, read/compiler macros, extremely easy interface to C (JNI is a pain in the ass), multi-paradigm and doesn't prematurely optimize like Clojure (I have no need for STM or immutable data structures in 99% of the things I do), very powerful and flexible debugger, CLOS, more sophisticated interactive development. Clojure is a no-go for me primarily because it's tied to the JVM (or worse, Javascript) and the Java ecosystem but also because it prematurely optimizes with the sort of decisions it has made in the design space (immutability, STM, crippled reader, not Lispy-enough debugging and so on). Common Lisp is much more flexible in the sort of problems it allows you to explore and attack. Even the special features of Clojure (STM, immutable data structures) can be used in Common Lisp via existing libraries. Finally, for me Lisp == Lisp Machines and Clojure is a big step back in that regard (and not really modern at all) since it de-emphasizes (by lacking things that Common Lisp has) the interactivity that made Genera so iconoclastic and powerful.

peatmoss 8y ago
I do like Clojure for some of its opinions (immutable by default, strong encouragement of functional programming, convenient abstractions for collections, tasteful syntactic sugar). But, I too am not necessarily a huge fan of the ecosystems that Clojure is presently tied to. I'd love to see an SBCL implementation of Clojure or (especially) an LLVM based Clojure. I'm grateful when Clojure offers me an out from writing Java, but I also feel like I need to understand both the Java and the Clojure. The Rackjure dialect of Racket is pretty nice by my estimation (adds some of the conveniences of Clojure, isn't tied to / the beneficiary of an ecosystem like the JVM or Javascript). But I suspect it would frustrate people who like aspects of the CL ecosystem like long-lived system images, and a very neutral disposition toward immutability and functional programming.
- FPGAhacker 8y ago
  Clojure isn’t really worth anything without the jvm/js ecosystem. It’s a glue language for assembling components, most of which are written in Java. Timothy Baldridge wrote a python based language heavily inspired by clojure called Pixie. That gives a feel for what clojure is like without the ecosystem. Basically it means reinventing many many wheels.
  - peatmoss 8y ago
    I don’t know—there are certainly some interesting / different things in Clojure as compared to other lisps. Even if you can technically do much of what Clojure can do in other lisps, idiomatic Clojure has a feeling that is distinct from CL, Scheme, or even Racket. If Clojure offers nothing without the large JVM/JS ecosystems, then we could say the same about most languages (that aren't the size of Java/JS). If it’s that the distinct cocktail of features and ideas in the language aren’t worth anything, then I’d respectfully disagree. But at that point we’d simply be arguing aesthetic preferences.
    - kamaal 8y ago
      Well that's the problem isn't it. Any new language today has little to compete with existing languages in terms language features, the competition is in terms or the library ecosystems, online help and overall ecosystem. That takes time and money to build. Given how large the Java ecosystem is, and what it took in terms of money and time to go there is not easy or even possible to match in any relative comparison. So it makes sense to make sacrifices(if needed) to re use all that Java work that has been done and has been going on over the years. Clojure is the best thing that has happened to Lisp in years.
      - lispm 8y ago
        > Clojure is the best thing that has happened to Java in years. FTFY
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lilactown 8y ago
Clojure was my first lisp; I use it every day at work, especially on JavaScript. ;) The (semi-)joke is that the reason Clojure targets the JVM and JS runtimes is so we can get paid to write it. However, I have started playing with Lisp (SBCL) a bit in my off time and am finding it interesting. I have a desire to write some CLI applications and think Lisp might be a better fit than Clojure. I was drawn to it for a lot of the reasons you note: 1. Native compilation 2. Reader macros 3. C FFI 4. Debugger But it's also a bit like learning how to write with my left hand; my brain has been warped by Clojure to eschew place-oriented development and reduce mutability to a pinpoint. Lisp is completely, unabashedly mutable (which gives a lot of room for improved performance vs. immutable) and I'm struggling with it.
- grovehaw 8y ago
  One way to use Common Lisp with a more immutable flavour is to use the folio2 library.[0] I have enjoyed exploring it a great deal. The project's readme, explains it better than I can: "folio 2 is a collection of small libraries that provide support for functional idioms and data structures in Common Lisp and a common set of APIs for working with them. "It's a direct descendant of the older and simpler folio library, with a greatly expanded and reorganized API, and support for more data structures and procedures. [0] https://github.com/mikelevins/folio2 https://github.com/mikelevins/folio2
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  If you want to use functional (immutable) collections in Common Lisp, try FSet [0]. (It's QuickLisp-loadable.) FSet greatly expands the space of programs that can naturally be written in a functional style in CL. [0] https://github.com/slburson/fset https://github.com/slburson/fset
  - lilactown 8y ago
    I have looked heavily at FSet :). I'm at a cross roads now with whether I try and push the Lisp block into the Clojure hole in my brain, or whether I should try and learn Lisp as it is and it's idioms. FSet is really cool and I'll probably end up using it in conjunction with https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-edn https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-edn

peatmoss 8y ago

I do like Clojure for some of its opinions (immutable by default, strong encouragement of functional programming, convenient abstractions for collections, tasteful syntactic sugar). But, I too am not necessarily a huge fan of the ecosystems that Clojure is presently tied to. I'd love to see an SBCL implementation of Clojure or (especially) an LLVM based Clojure. I'm grateful when Clojure offers me an out from writing Java, but I also feel like I need to understand both the Java and the Clojure. The Rackjure dialect of Racket is pretty nice by my estimation (adds some of the conveniences of Clojure, isn't tied to / the beneficiary of an ecosystem like the JVM or Javascript). But I suspect it would frustrate people who like aspects of the CL ecosystem like long-lived system images, and a very neutral disposition toward immutability and functional programming.

FPGAhacker 8y ago
Clojure isn’t really worth anything without the jvm/js ecosystem. It’s a glue language for assembling components, most of which are written in Java. Timothy Baldridge wrote a python based language heavily inspired by clojure called Pixie. That gives a feel for what clojure is like without the ecosystem. Basically it means reinventing many many wheels.
- peatmoss 8y ago
  I don’t know—there are certainly some interesting / different things in Clojure as compared to other lisps. Even if you can technically do much of what Clojure can do in other lisps, idiomatic Clojure has a feeling that is distinct from CL, Scheme, or even Racket. If Clojure offers nothing without the large JVM/JS ecosystems, then we could say the same about most languages (that aren't the size of Java/JS). If it’s that the distinct cocktail of features and ideas in the language aren’t worth anything, then I’d respectfully disagree. But at that point we’d simply be arguing aesthetic preferences.
  - kamaal 8y ago
    Well that's the problem isn't it. Any new language today has little to compete with existing languages in terms language features, the competition is in terms or the library ecosystems, online help and overall ecosystem. That takes time and money to build. Given how large the Java ecosystem is, and what it took in terms of money and time to go there is not easy or even possible to match in any relative comparison. So it makes sense to make sacrifices(if needed) to re use all that Java work that has been done and has been going on over the years. Clojure is the best thing that has happened to Lisp in years.
    - lispm 8y ago
      > Clojure is the best thing that has happened to Java in years. FTFY
      - deleted 8y ago
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lilactown 8y ago

Clojure was my first lisp; I use it every day at work, especially on JavaScript. ;) The (semi-)joke is that the reason Clojure targets the JVM and JS runtimes is so we can get paid to write it. However, I have started playing with Lisp (SBCL) a bit in my off time and am finding it interesting. I have a desire to write some CLI applications and think Lisp might be a better fit than Clojure. I was drawn to it for a lot of the reasons you note: 1. Native compilation 2. Reader macros 3. C FFI 4. Debugger But it's also a bit like learning how to write with my left hand; my brain has been warped by Clojure to eschew place-oriented development and reduce mutability to a pinpoint. Lisp is completely, unabashedly mutable (which gives a lot of room for improved performance vs. immutable) and I'm struggling with it.

grovehaw 8y ago
One way to use Common Lisp with a more immutable flavour is to use the folio2 library.[0] I have enjoyed exploring it a great deal. The project's readme, explains it better than I can: "folio 2 is a collection of small libraries that provide support for functional idioms and data structures in Common Lisp and a common set of APIs for working with them. "It's a direct descendant of the older and simpler folio library, with a greatly expanded and reorganized API, and support for more data structures and procedures. [0] https://github.com/mikelevins/folio2 https://github.com/mikelevins/folio2
ScottBurson 8y ago
If you want to use functional (immutable) collections in Common Lisp, try FSet [0]. (It's QuickLisp-loadable.) FSet greatly expands the space of programs that can naturally be written in a functional style in CL. [0] https://github.com/slburson/fset https://github.com/slburson/fset
- lilactown 8y ago
  I have looked heavily at FSet :). I'm at a cross roads now with whether I try and push the Lisp block into the Clojure hole in my brain, or whether I should try and learn Lisp as it is and it's idioms. FSet is really cool and I'll probably end up using it in conjunction with https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-edn https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-edn