5 ms·

>Yet, you seemed to stop a step short of calling this structural racism against Asian Americans. Is there something I am missing for why you didn't take that la

>Yet, you seemed to stop a step short of calling this structural racism against Asian Americans. Is there something I am missing for why you didn't take that last step? If we remove legacy admissions, does the Harvard admission system become racist against white people? I don't think so. Harvard is trying to counter-balance a (semi) racially stratified society. Imagine a caste society. Higher caste children are provided with much more material support and are going to be more equipped to get high scores on standardized tests and participate in extracurricular activities (and the right ones). Would a school that looked only at test scores and extracurriculars be race-blind? No, it would just be an indirect observer of race, in this way we have 'laundered' race. In a racist structure there is no way to be blind to race, you either perpetuate it or you work against it.

Veelox 8y ago
>In a racist structure there is no way to be blind to race, you either perpetuate it or you work against it. You could be trying to say one thing while I hear something different. Do you think it is okay to elevate underrepresented minorities despite a lack of objectively measurable merit?
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  >Do you think it is okay to elevate underrepresented minorities despite a lack of objectively measurable merit? In the sense that you mean it - yes. But I would say that there is no such thing as 'objectively measurable merit' and that frequently the type of merit we measure when admitting applicants to the Ivy League isn't really merit at all but instead laundered privilege (whether on race or class or anything else). Some intelligent black girl who goes to a school that performs in the bottom third and takes the hardest classes available to her and has to work a job after school has basically no chance to make it to Harvard or Stanford or Cornell. Some intelligent Asian girl who goes to a private school and takes the hardest classes available and plays tennis and is on the debate team still has a decent chance. Who is more meritorious? We aren't really measuring merit at all, we're measuring likelihood to pass into the upper echelons of society. And then to the extent that there are lots of white and Asian kids who have grown up in circumstances which allow them to signal in a way that the black girl above can't, I really don't have a problem with Harvard stepping in and fixing that.
  - Veelox 8y ago
    I think we are disagreeing about what it means to be meritorious. Both people should have equal work ethic. I would say that the person who has been to private school, taken hard classes, is physically fit, and a practiced debater has a higher chance to succeed at Harvard and afterward due to having better cognitive skills. >And then to the extent that there are lots of white and Asian kids who have grown up in circumstances which allow them to signal in a way that the black girl above can't, I really don't have a problem with Harvard stepping in and fixing that. I would say that Asian culture has done a better job, on average, of preparing its children with good study habits, work ethic, and cognitive skills than Black culture has. Thus it bothers me that Harvard who are less well prepared because of their skin color.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
      >Both people should have equal work ethic. I would say that the person who has been to private school, taken hard classes, is physically fit, and a practiced debater has a higher chance to succeed at Harvard and afterward due to having better cognitive skills. The whole point of my example was to pose two people of equal intelligence with equal work ethic. I'll admit the Asian girl has a higher chance to succeed at Harvard but I don't believe that's due to her merit, it's due to being placed in a more challenging environment, something that is completely out of her control. >I would say that Asian culture has done a better job, on average, of preparing its children with good study habits, work ethic, and cognitive skills than Black culture has. 1. Culture doesn't just emerge spontaneously, it's a response to environment. Asians and blacks have very different historical circumstances thus different cultures. 2. It's completely unfair to hold an 18 year old accountable to the 'culture of their race' (if there is such a thing). The 18 year old black girl didn't choose to be born into her culture any more than the 18 year old Asian girl chose to be born into hers. The black girl didn't choose to live in a poor area or have poor parents or go to a bad school just like the Asian girl didn't choose to live in a good area or have middle/upper-class parents or go to a good school. These things are irrelevant to merit and yet they all count for one girl and against the other. That's not really a merit-based system.
      - 8y ago

Veelox 8y ago

>In a racist structure there is no way to be blind to race, you either perpetuate it or you work against it. You could be trying to say one thing while I hear something different. Do you think it is okay to elevate underrepresented minorities despite a lack of objectively measurable merit?

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
>Do you think it is okay to elevate underrepresented minorities despite a lack of objectively measurable merit? In the sense that you mean it - yes. But I would say that there is no such thing as 'objectively measurable merit' and that frequently the type of merit we measure when admitting applicants to the Ivy League isn't really merit at all but instead laundered privilege (whether on race or class or anything else). Some intelligent black girl who goes to a school that performs in the bottom third and takes the hardest classes available to her and has to work a job after school has basically no chance to make it to Harvard or Stanford or Cornell. Some intelligent Asian girl who goes to a private school and takes the hardest classes available and plays tennis and is on the debate team still has a decent chance. Who is more meritorious? We aren't really measuring merit at all, we're measuring likelihood to pass into the upper echelons of society. And then to the extent that there are lots of white and Asian kids who have grown up in circumstances which allow them to signal in a way that the black girl above can't, I really don't have a problem with Harvard stepping in and fixing that.
- Veelox 8y ago
  I think we are disagreeing about what it means to be meritorious. Both people should have equal work ethic. I would say that the person who has been to private school, taken hard classes, is physically fit, and a practiced debater has a higher chance to succeed at Harvard and afterward due to having better cognitive skills. >And then to the extent that there are lots of white and Asian kids who have grown up in circumstances which allow them to signal in a way that the black girl above can't, I really don't have a problem with Harvard stepping in and fixing that. I would say that Asian culture has done a better job, on average, of preparing its children with good study habits, work ethic, and cognitive skills than Black culture has. Thus it bothers me that Harvard who are less well prepared because of their skin color.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
    >Both people should have equal work ethic. I would say that the person who has been to private school, taken hard classes, is physically fit, and a practiced debater has a higher chance to succeed at Harvard and afterward due to having better cognitive skills. The whole point of my example was to pose two people of equal intelligence with equal work ethic. I'll admit the Asian girl has a higher chance to succeed at Harvard but I don't believe that's due to her merit, it's due to being placed in a more challenging environment, something that is completely out of her control. >I would say that Asian culture has done a better job, on average, of preparing its children with good study habits, work ethic, and cognitive skills than Black culture has. 1. Culture doesn't just emerge spontaneously, it's a response to environment. Asians and blacks have very different historical circumstances thus different cultures. 2. It's completely unfair to hold an 18 year old accountable to the 'culture of their race' (if there is such a thing). The 18 year old black girl didn't choose to be born into her culture any more than the 18 year old Asian girl chose to be born into hers. The black girl didn't choose to live in a poor area or have poor parents or go to a bad school just like the Asian girl didn't choose to live in a good area or have middle/upper-class parents or go to a good school. These things are irrelevant to merit and yet they all count for one girl and against the other. That's not really a merit-based system.
    - 8y ago