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In France, the most sought after enginnering schools use an entrance exam. No need to check for old academic performances as everyone is tested on the same thin

by arkh 8y ago

In France, the most sought after enginnering schools use an entrance exam. No need to check for old academic performances as everyone is tested on the same things. They usually also have alternate admittance system but that's for 2% or 3% of students.

baud147258 8y ago
In particular, these written part of the entrance exam usually cover multiple schools, which allow students to pass two or three written examination, whose result will examined by multiple schools.
Amezarak 8y ago
By 'academic performance' he is almost certainly including their ACT and SAT test scores, which serve essentially as standardized university entrance exams in the US. The problem is for schools like Harvard or Stanford, almost all the applicants have near-perfect scores, so they're not a good differentiator - people with lower scores will not apply, since they know they will not be accepted.
- thecleaner 8y ago
  I guess thats a problem with the SAT. I saw a couple of questions and a lot of them are very easy for college entrance exams. I think university entrances should be a bit on the tough end (China's standardized tests and JEE from India come to mind). Of course schools could look at a lot more but if so many people get perfect scores then that clearly is a problem with the tests themselves.
  - Amezarak 8y ago
    0.06% of ACT takers scored perfectly in 2013. A smaller percentage get a perfect score on the SAT. I don't think the problem is the test is too easy. The problem is there are 400 million people in the USA, and the 1-2% of entering freshmen across the country having high scores mostly apply to the same few schools.
  - georgecmu 8y ago
    The challenge of SAT is not in the difficulty of the questions. The challenge is that there are 40 questions and you have 1.25 minutes to do each one.
    - Ntrails 8y ago
      When i was at uni they described the intention as: 40% for book learning (memorisation) 30% for variations on things you've seen before 30% for applying concepts in new ways, requiring "deeper" understanding From that perspective, if I want good students I don't care if you can answer a standard question quickly and accurately, I care whether you can reason something about a harder question given time to think.
    - thecleaner 8y ago
      I see. That is tight. But that simply tests thinking under time pressure. Fewer problems with higher difficulty level may help here (like the Olympiads or Putnam but both being extreme examples). But the challenge would then be to come up with large number of such problems.
- jstoeffler 8y ago
  The French system he’s talking about is more a contest than an exam. They are intentionally too hard/long for anybody to score perfectly. This way it’s possible to differentiate between two excellent students. Not saying it’s perfect, but at least it’s sort of fair.
  - extra88 8y ago
    Don't the families who are well off spend a lot of money on test prep? The bright students who don't have the time or money for that are at a disadvantage. There's also the unlucky ones who have something happen and can't do their best on the exam. High-stakes testing has its own problems.
melkiaur 8y ago
In France, Polytechnique is probably the most sought after. There's an oral exam to get in, and guess what ? Only 25% of student from Paris are eliminated, versus 40% of kids from la province. 7% of girls are eliminated in the Computer Science branch (MP-Info), versus 27% of boys. More info, in french: https://www.lemonde.fr/campus/article/2014/11/25/l-ecole-polytechnique-ce-concentre-d-inegalites_4529264_4401467.html https://www.lemonde.fr/campus/article/2014/11/25/l-ecole-pol... And besides, the real filtering is actually done after the Baccalauréat: not everyone gets to be admitted to the big Parisian Lycées (Henry-IV, Louis-Le-Grand, etc.).
cycrutchfield 8y ago
If you want to see how putting the entire admissions process on a single entrance exam will play out, look no further than the dystopian cram schools of China and India. Unless we want to train a generation of rote-memorizers and elite test takers, this is not a direction that should be pursued.
- home_boi 8y ago
  Those admissions processes are actually seen as very fair processes in those countries. IIRC, there is very high economic diversity in the top colleges in China and India which can't be said about the Ivy League schools.
  - cycrutchfield 8y ago
    Those admissions processes are actually well-known for producing excellent students of rote memorization and standardized tests. They are not well-known for producing well-rounded students that are capable of thinking outside of the box.

by arkh 8y ago

baud147258 8y ago

In particular, these written part of the entrance exam usually cover multiple schools, which allow students to pass two or three written examination, whose result will examined by multiple schools.

Amezarak 8y ago

By 'academic performance' he is almost certainly including their ACT and SAT test scores, which serve essentially as standardized university entrance exams in the US. The problem is for schools like Harvard or Stanford, almost all the applicants have near-perfect scores, so they're not a good differentiator - people with lower scores will not apply, since they know they will not be accepted.

thecleaner 8y ago
I guess thats a problem with the SAT. I saw a couple of questions and a lot of them are very easy for college entrance exams. I think university entrances should be a bit on the tough end (China's standardized tests and JEE from India come to mind). Of course schools could look at a lot more but if so many people get perfect scores then that clearly is a problem with the tests themselves.
- Amezarak 8y ago
  0.06% of ACT takers scored perfectly in 2013. A smaller percentage get a perfect score on the SAT. I don't think the problem is the test is too easy. The problem is there are 400 million people in the USA, and the 1-2% of entering freshmen across the country having high scores mostly apply to the same few schools.
- georgecmu 8y ago
  The challenge of SAT is not in the difficulty of the questions. The challenge is that there are 40 questions and you have 1.25 minutes to do each one.
  - Ntrails 8y ago
    When i was at uni they described the intention as: 40% for book learning (memorisation) 30% for variations on things you've seen before 30% for applying concepts in new ways, requiring "deeper" understanding From that perspective, if I want good students I don't care if you can answer a standard question quickly and accurately, I care whether you can reason something about a harder question given time to think.
  - thecleaner 8y ago
    I see. That is tight. But that simply tests thinking under time pressure. Fewer problems with higher difficulty level may help here (like the Olympiads or Putnam but both being extreme examples). But the challenge would then be to come up with large number of such problems.
jstoeffler 8y ago
The French system he’s talking about is more a contest than an exam. They are intentionally too hard/long for anybody to score perfectly. This way it’s possible to differentiate between two excellent students. Not saying it’s perfect, but at least it’s sort of fair.
- extra88 8y ago
  Don't the families who are well off spend a lot of money on test prep? The bright students who don't have the time or money for that are at a disadvantage. There's also the unlucky ones who have something happen and can't do their best on the exam. High-stakes testing has its own problems.

melkiaur 8y ago

In France, Polytechnique is probably the most sought after. There's an oral exam to get in, and guess what ? Only 25% of student from Paris are eliminated, versus 40% of kids from la province. 7% of girls are eliminated in the Computer Science branch (MP-Info), versus 27% of boys. More info, in french: https://www.lemonde.fr/campus/article/2014/11/25/l-ecole-polytechnique-ce-concentre-d-inegalites_4529264_4401467.html https://www.lemonde.fr/campus/article/2014/11/25/l-ecole-pol... And besides, the real filtering is actually done after the Baccalauréat: not everyone gets to be admitted to the big Parisian Lycées (Henry-IV, Louis-Le-Grand, etc.).

cycrutchfield 8y ago

If you want to see how putting the entire admissions process on a single entrance exam will play out, look no further than the dystopian cram schools of China and India. Unless we want to train a generation of rote-memorizers and elite test takers, this is not a direction that should be pursued.

home_boi 8y ago
Those admissions processes are actually seen as very fair processes in those countries. IIRC, there is very high economic diversity in the top colleges in China and India which can't be said about the Ivy League schools.
- cycrutchfield 8y ago
  Those admissions processes are actually well-known for producing excellent students of rote memorization and standardized tests. They are not well-known for producing well-rounded students that are capable of thinking outside of the box.