5 ms·

I never say "No". I just say, "Yes. And this is what it will cost you to do it right:" - Projects X, Y, Z will all be pushed back 2 weeks. - Prerequisite

by edw519 16y ago

I never say "No". I just say, "Yes. And this is what it will cost you to do it right:" - Projects X, Y, Z will all be pushed back 2 weeks. - Prerequisite Project <x> will have to come first. - <x> weeks overtime for <y> people = $z. - Joe and Mary will have to be pulled away for 3 weeks. - Interim solution <x> will only take 1 week, but <y> won't work. - We will need your top supervisor full-time next week. or, best of all: - We don't know. We need a project to find out. Note that "doing it wrong" or "doing it quick & dirty" are not options. People understand "this is what it will take" a lot better than "no". They also understand the trade-offs and sacrifices needed. Then they will work with you to make the best decision for everybody.

modoc 16y ago
You're working for better clients/managers than I am:)
makmanalp 16y ago
This is great advice. The best thing about it is that it dispels any notions that: a) the thing you're doing is simple b) it can be done quickly (which turns the situation from: "he won't get off his lazy ass and do it" to "i'm asking for way too much, and this is going to risk the project")
Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
A friend (in a completely different line of work) said that the reason that directors (he works in TV) liked him was that he never said no, he always gave them options. Yes you can have the helicopter for that shot you want but you'll need to lose this, this or this from the rest of the episode. It's a great lesson for most things in life.
j_baker 16y ago
I agree. Generally speaking, saying "I'm the developer, and I say this is wrong" is no better than "I'm the manager and I say do it now". I think the best approach is usually to say "I can do that, but understand that you're putting the next project behind to do this one". Granted, that won't change their mind. But you will have an excuse for being behind next time.
azanar 16y ago
I never say "No". I just say, "Yes. And this is what it will cost you to do it right" You have a number of "this is what it will cost you" options which will only work if the party you are negotiating with is reasonable. There are teams and managers out there who will happily assert that they can violate the laws of space-time in order to avoid making the sacrifices you'll tell them they need to make. Note that "doing it wrong" or "doing it quick & dirty" are not options. What if you are told directly to do it "quick & dirty," and you refuse? Is that not the same thing as saying "No"? Or by never saying no, do you mean never say no without providing what qualifications would turn it into a yes? What do you do about people you know will attempt to spin things later on to bolster their claims that they weren't advised of the costs ahead of time? In other words, what do you do about people who don't have an impeccable sense of ethics? It seems like you would need that before you could feel safe being this agreeable.
- j_baker 16y ago
  "You have a number of "this is what it will cost you" options which will only work if the party you are negotiating with is reasonable. There are teams and managers out there who will happily assert that they can violate the laws of space-time in order to avoid making the sacrifices you'll tell them they need to make." Generally speaking though, it's less a matter of reasoning with them as it is a matter of finding the right buttons to push. Is it that their goals are misaligned from yours? Phrase your response in terms of their goals; they can't be too out of line if they need something from you. Do they not trust you? Point out that they're going to have to trust you whether you do it your way or theirs. If they're being genuinely unreasonable and out of touch with reality and they are completely unwilling to change their approach, I'd personally rather spend my time finding ways to not have to work with them. Chances are they really aren't though. They just have a different way of looking at things that you can't meet without learning to think like they do a bit.
  - cdavid 16y ago
    But what if they don't trust you until you can do things that they ask ? The difficult situation is people who do not trust you and ask you to do their own way until they do - not realizing that doing it their way is exactly what prevents you from doing your job. It is fairly typical in my experience, but I have not found a way to deal with it effectively.
frossie 16y ago
I never say "No". Really? I expect to hear No (clarification: I am a project manager/ geek herder). That's fine. I don't need my developers to be wasting time working out convincing arguments and workarounds to requests - I trust that they want to be helpful and if they are saying no, there's a good reason. Hell, assuming I am on top of stuff, I can figure out what the reason is - and in the rare occasion when I can't, I just ask. I am here so that my developers don't have to worry about this shit. Yeah, if your PM is not shielding you, you can try that approach above - at least it makes you not look obstructive. However, people burn out doing that after a while, especially when they have to explain this stuff to people who don't want to understand them. In which case a simple "How does this compare with my current top priority X?" is generally sufficient.
- alanh 16y ago
  Can I work for you?
  - kreek 16y ago
    ditto
  - frossie 16y ago
    It's that unusual? Oh dear. The average HNer would probably gouge their eyes out rather than work for me. I am in academia - we think 65K is a good salary. No big exits here :-)
    - SAHChandler 16y ago
      Could be worse. 40K~ish for an entry level game programmer. Few exits there as well :P
      - mfukar 16y ago
        Try the telecom sector: ~20K €, entry level. It's almost stupid.
liedra 16y ago
What if what you're being asked to do is ethically questionable?
- dedward 16y ago
  Ugly code is not generally an ethical issue. Ethics are another matter entirely, and it really depends on your own reputation and how you want to protect it -vs- bringing home the bacon.
  - mfukar 16y ago
    It is, because it's a direct conflict of interest between the one implementing the "ugly solution" and the ones who are later going to need to read it, debug it, refactor it, etc. Who are, in fact, most likely to be colleagues, in this context.
andymism 16y ago
Most of the time, I'd argue that you can't really say 'No' at all. Not if you want a happy client. If you do say no, then you'll just end up delivering an end product that isn't exactly what the client wanted and didn't have that feature they requested. I can't imagine any situation where that results in a happy client. So what do you do? I say: Get the client to say 'No' for you. Getting people to understand the trade-offs and sacrifices for what they might consider a "quick 'n easy" feature is the name of the game here. You've got to flesh out all the assumptions that they have when making such a request so that they understand what the impact is on schedule, budget, and code. But what they still don't understand is why Projects X, Y, and Z will have to be pushed back for 2 weeks or why Joe and Mary will have to pulled away for 3 weeks just to do this "quick", "simple" thing. At this point, what I usually do is spec out the entire feature (front-loading all the mockups, copywriting, etc) on the spot or in a meeting immediately following. The reasoning is that "If you want this feature tomorrow, then it has to be designed today." And well, practically speaking, you can't implement it by tomorrow if you don't know what you need to do yet anyway and, worse still, you'll build the wrong thing if you don't at least discuss it in some detail with your client first. If the feature isn't important enough to spec out in detail now, it's not important enough to be done by tomorrow. In my experience as a solo webdev freelancer (so take it for what it's worth), clients usually see my point and give in when they realize that we're trying to compress about a week's worth of back and forth emails, phone calls, and let-this-idea-sink-in time into about an hour--sometimes even realizing that they don't really know yet what they want.
roberts_vc 16y ago
Bingo! I say, "here are your choices; A> will get you this, B> will get you this, but not this... " etc. "Quick and Dirty" is still an available choice, but I warn them thoroughly of the drawbacks and risk. Basically, if you wanna pay me, I'll still do it your way, but I will also provide ample warning, oftentimes in writing. Few/no people will still choose the bad way, due to the warning. If their "Q&D" choice is just going to lead to certain disaster, then no, I write off that business as not worth my reputation or frustration, entirely. But after my explanation(s), I've never had a customer choose the lousy way, and they always accept my explanation and guidance. It's all in the pitch!

by edw519 16y ago

modoc 16y ago

You're working for better clients/managers than I am:)

makmanalp 16y ago

This is great advice. The best thing about it is that it dispels any notions that: a) the thing you're doing is simple b) it can be done quickly (which turns the situation from: "he won't get off his lazy ass and do it" to "i'm asking for way too much, and this is going to risk the project")

Tyrannosaurs 16y ago

A friend (in a completely different line of work) said that the reason that directors (he works in TV) liked him was that he never said no, he always gave them options. Yes you can have the helicopter for that shot you want but you'll need to lose this, this or this from the rest of the episode. It's a great lesson for most things in life.

j_baker 16y ago

I agree. Generally speaking, saying "I'm the developer, and I say this is wrong" is no better than "I'm the manager and I say do it now". I think the best approach is usually to say "I can do that, but understand that you're putting the next project behind to do this one". Granted, that won't change their mind. But you will have an excuse for being behind next time.

azanar 16y ago

I never say "No". I just say, "Yes. And this is what it will cost you to do it right" You have a number of "this is what it will cost you" options which will only work if the party you are negotiating with is reasonable. There are teams and managers out there who will happily assert that they can violate the laws of space-time in order to avoid making the sacrifices you'll tell them they need to make. Note that "doing it wrong" or "doing it quick & dirty" are not options. What if you are told directly to do it "quick & dirty," and you refuse? Is that not the same thing as saying "No"? Or by never saying no, do you mean never say no without providing what qualifications would turn it into a yes? What do you do about people you know will attempt to spin things later on to bolster their claims that they weren't advised of the costs ahead of time? In other words, what do you do about people who don't have an impeccable sense of ethics? It seems like you would need that before you could feel safe being this agreeable.

j_baker 16y ago
"You have a number of "this is what it will cost you" options which will only work if the party you are negotiating with is reasonable. There are teams and managers out there who will happily assert that they can violate the laws of space-time in order to avoid making the sacrifices you'll tell them they need to make." Generally speaking though, it's less a matter of reasoning with them as it is a matter of finding the right buttons to push. Is it that their goals are misaligned from yours? Phrase your response in terms of their goals; they can't be too out of line if they need something from you. Do they not trust you? Point out that they're going to have to trust you whether you do it your way or theirs. If they're being genuinely unreasonable and out of touch with reality and they are completely unwilling to change their approach, I'd personally rather spend my time finding ways to not have to work with them. Chances are they really aren't though. They just have a different way of looking at things that you can't meet without learning to think like they do a bit.
- cdavid 16y ago
  But what if they don't trust you until you can do things that they ask ? The difficult situation is people who do not trust you and ask you to do their own way until they do - not realizing that doing it their way is exactly what prevents you from doing your job. It is fairly typical in my experience, but I have not found a way to deal with it effectively.

frossie 16y ago

I never say "No". Really? I expect to hear No (clarification: I am a project manager/ geek herder). That's fine. I don't need my developers to be wasting time working out convincing arguments and workarounds to requests - I trust that they want to be helpful and if they are saying no, there's a good reason. Hell, assuming I am on top of stuff, I can figure out what the reason is - and in the rare occasion when I can't, I just ask. I am here so that my developers don't have to worry about this shit. Yeah, if your PM is not shielding you, you can try that approach above - at least it makes you not look obstructive. However, people burn out doing that after a while, especially when they have to explain this stuff to people who don't want to understand them. In which case a simple "How does this compare with my current top priority X?" is generally sufficient.

alanh 16y ago
Can I work for you?
- kreek 16y ago
  ditto
- frossie 16y ago
  It's that unusual? Oh dear. The average HNer would probably gouge their eyes out rather than work for me. I am in academia - we think 65K is a good salary. No big exits here :-)
  - SAHChandler 16y ago
    Could be worse. 40K~ish for an entry level game programmer. Few exits there as well :P
    - mfukar 16y ago
      Try the telecom sector: ~20K €, entry level. It's almost stupid.

liedra 16y ago

What if what you're being asked to do is ethically questionable?

dedward 16y ago
Ugly code is not generally an ethical issue. Ethics are another matter entirely, and it really depends on your own reputation and how you want to protect it -vs- bringing home the bacon.
- mfukar 16y ago
  It is, because it's a direct conflict of interest between the one implementing the "ugly solution" and the ones who are later going to need to read it, debug it, refactor it, etc. Who are, in fact, most likely to be colleagues, in this context.

andymism 16y ago

Most of the time, I'd argue that you can't really say 'No' at all. Not if you want a happy client. If you do say no, then you'll just end up delivering an end product that isn't exactly what the client wanted and didn't have that feature they requested. I can't imagine any situation where that results in a happy client. So what do you do? I say: Get the client to say 'No' for you. Getting people to understand the trade-offs and sacrifices for what they might consider a "quick 'n easy" feature is the name of the game here. You've got to flesh out all the assumptions that they have when making such a request so that they understand what the impact is on schedule, budget, and code. But what they still don't understand is why Projects X, Y, and Z will have to be pushed back for 2 weeks or why Joe and Mary will have to pulled away for 3 weeks just to do this "quick", "simple" thing. At this point, what I usually do is spec out the entire feature (front-loading all the mockups, copywriting, etc) on the spot or in a meeting immediately following. The reasoning is that "If you want this feature tomorrow, then it has to be designed today." And well, practically speaking, you can't implement it by tomorrow if you don't know what you need to do yet anyway and, worse still, you'll build the wrong thing if you don't at least discuss it in some detail with your client first. If the feature isn't important enough to spec out in detail now, it's not important enough to be done by tomorrow. In my experience as a solo webdev freelancer (so take it for what it's worth), clients usually see my point and give in when they realize that we're trying to compress about a week's worth of back and forth emails, phone calls, and let-this-idea-sink-in time into about an hour--sometimes even realizing that they don't really know yet what they want.

roberts_vc 16y ago

Bingo! I say, "here are your choices; A> will get you this, B> will get you this, but not this... " etc. "Quick and Dirty" is still an available choice, but I warn them thoroughly of the drawbacks and risk. Basically, if you wanna pay me, I'll still do it your way, but I will also provide ample warning, oftentimes in writing. Few/no people will still choose the bad way, due to the warning. If their "Q&D" choice is just going to lead to certain disaster, then no, I write off that business as not worth my reputation or frustration, entirely. But after my explanation(s), I've never had a customer choose the lousy way, and they always accept my explanation and guidance. It's all in the pitch!