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I think what they were trying to also say is "make the process fair" isn't as simple as 4 words. It's a struggle for even the most ardent of believers in giving

I think what they were trying to also say is "make the process fair" isn't as simple as 4 words. It's a struggle for even the most ardent of believers in giving everyone a fair shot. The problem is defining what is fair.

manigandham 8y ago
Of course it's not simple or easy. It's not completely possible either, as life itself isn't fair. That's just the reality we live in. But that's why we should do the best we can, to make it as fair as possible, and while there is much progress to be made around the world, there are also some clearly wrong ways to go about it and diversity quotas are about as worse as it gets.
- themarkn 8y ago
  I guess quotas is such a vague term maybe it’s pointless to argue this. There can me more or less effective/fair implementations of a quota system. I’m not sure what better ideas are out there that don’t involve measuring the result in terms of diversity in a certain field, and optimizing to increase that result... which is in effect a quota.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    But that's the issue, nothing should be done for a certain result because that's assuming there is some omniscient knowledge of what is the "right" outcome. That just doesn't exist so attempting it will always lead to chaos. Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible.
    - themarkn 8y ago
      > Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible. If we all started with the same options, this would be true. Our limits would only be reflections of our preferences and natural abilities. Like in an RPG where we pick wether to be a warrior or mage or whatever - you go down a skills path by choice based on what you want to achieve and what resources (xp etc) you have. Unfortunately people are born into an active system wherein millions of events from before they were born are exerting pressures on their lives, pressures that we are mostly unaware of until it’s too late. There’s no neutral “fair” option. This sucks. It’s bad. It’s stupid. People’s location or race or sex at birth should not bless them or condemn them. It should just be an interesting detail. But those things have real effects. Ignoring this means accepting the current biases as somehow natural, and continues rewarding those already born with advantages. Fighting it means adding NEW biases, and reducing the advantages inherited by people with privilege. Which naturally seems unreasonable if you currently enjoy the benefits of those advantages. Solutions like yours, which require no work be done to change things by the privileged, and ask the less privileged to reinterpret the status quo so that they realize things are fine as they are, should be suspect. They are not all definitely wrong, but they are especially attractive because of their convenience. And that pretty exterior can mask their lack of actual substance.
      - manigandham 8y ago
        No, bias is still bias. You do not beat discrimination by discriminating against another group of people. Don't focus on the outcome and try to engineer what you think is fair. That only leads to chaos because you can't possibly understand every individual's life experience. Life will never be fair. That is a fundamental aspect of reality, so trying to arrange the future without perfect omniscience means you are doing nothing more than adding another roll of the dice. It may seem like you're equalizing things, but you're not. Like I said, the focus should be on opportunity. That is vastly different than outcome, and it does mean that we should strive to make it so that anyone from any background has a chance to do what they want to do. That doesn't mean that some won't have to worker harder than others, again life isn't fair and that'll always be a part of it, but the chance is what matters. As long as people have a chance, then they have a chance to achieve their goals and dreams and actually find happiness. That's the only way it works.

manigandham 8y ago

Of course it's not simple or easy. It's not completely possible either, as life itself isn't fair. That's just the reality we live in. But that's why we should do the best we can, to make it as fair as possible, and while there is much progress to be made around the world, there are also some clearly wrong ways to go about it and diversity quotas are about as worse as it gets.

themarkn 8y ago
I guess quotas is such a vague term maybe it’s pointless to argue this. There can me more or less effective/fair implementations of a quota system. I’m not sure what better ideas are out there that don’t involve measuring the result in terms of diversity in a certain field, and optimizing to increase that result... which is in effect a quota.
- manigandham 8y ago
  But that's the issue, nothing should be done for a certain result because that's assuming there is some omniscient knowledge of what is the "right" outcome. That just doesn't exist so attempting it will always lead to chaos. Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible.
  - themarkn 8y ago
    > Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible. If we all started with the same options, this would be true. Our limits would only be reflections of our preferences and natural abilities. Like in an RPG where we pick wether to be a warrior or mage or whatever - you go down a skills path by choice based on what you want to achieve and what resources (xp etc) you have. Unfortunately people are born into an active system wherein millions of events from before they were born are exerting pressures on their lives, pressures that we are mostly unaware of until it’s too late. There’s no neutral “fair” option. This sucks. It’s bad. It’s stupid. People’s location or race or sex at birth should not bless them or condemn them. It should just be an interesting detail. But those things have real effects. Ignoring this means accepting the current biases as somehow natural, and continues rewarding those already born with advantages. Fighting it means adding NEW biases, and reducing the advantages inherited by people with privilege. Which naturally seems unreasonable if you currently enjoy the benefits of those advantages. Solutions like yours, which require no work be done to change things by the privileged, and ask the less privileged to reinterpret the status quo so that they realize things are fine as they are, should be suspect. They are not all definitely wrong, but they are especially attractive because of their convenience. And that pretty exterior can mask their lack of actual substance.
    - manigandham 8y ago
      No, bias is still bias. You do not beat discrimination by discriminating against another group of people. Don't focus on the outcome and try to engineer what you think is fair. That only leads to chaos because you can't possibly understand every individual's life experience. Life will never be fair. That is a fundamental aspect of reality, so trying to arrange the future without perfect omniscience means you are doing nothing more than adding another roll of the dice. It may seem like you're equalizing things, but you're not. Like I said, the focus should be on opportunity. That is vastly different than outcome, and it does mean that we should strive to make it so that anyone from any background has a chance to do what they want to do. That doesn't mean that some won't have to worker harder than others, again life isn't fair and that'll always be a part of it, but the chance is what matters. As long as people have a chance, then they have a chance to achieve their goals and dreams and actually find happiness. That's the only way it works.