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What we need is stronger rights for the worker. At the moment the employer holds all of the cards and enjoys the fact that we can be let go for silly social rio

by monksy 8y ago

What we need is stronger rights for the worker. At the moment the employer holds all of the cards and enjoys the fact that we can be let go for silly social riots like this.

vowelless 8y ago
I wonder what reasonable rights we can have to protect workers. At will employment sounds like a good idea on paper (employee can quit anytime they want), but it is assymetric, especially when large corporations are involved (employee is easily replaceable and so impact of quitting is less on corporation). Perhaps we should have at will employment for small corporations and then private unions for larger corporations? The unions will increase bargaining power of employees which could mitigate the issues brought up in the article.
ngngngng 8y ago
I debated this with a co-worker the other day. His opinion was that no matter what the reason for firing an employee, the employer can always justify it by citing performance or budgetary concerns. So the protections would be rendered useless. How's it work in Norway? They usually do a good job of making Americans look silly when we say "that can't work because..."
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- duxup 8y ago
  Timing with the social outrage would present some difficulties. Also presumably this stuff crosses someone's desk and they email someone else and there starts the paper trail for the worker's lawyers.
- mdekkers 8y ago
  ...citing performance or budgetary concerns... In the UK, where I ran a business and employed people, you need a small mountain of paperwork, collected over a fair period of time, to show that you tried in good faith to remedy the situation with the employee (in case of performance). Budgetary concerns also carry a heavy burden of proof. It really is a difficult and time-consuming path. Most medium and large companies choose to bypass the whole thing and offer a "compromise agreement", essentially "we give you x months pay right now if you sign this agreement where we mutually agree not to sue, or talk bad against eachother, and you GTFO right now". There is a significant risk of something called "constructive dismissal" meaning you made it unreasonably hard for someone to be effective in their workplace, that is decided by an employment tribunal. As an employer, the system is undoubtedly a burden, but as a human, I always found I could live with it. I had one instance where it was open-and-shut grounds for instant dismissal, and I still had to spend 4 months going through the process to ensure I was fully covered and not liable to some tribunal action. That sucked, but in the end there are many large firms that will fuck over employees without a second thought (USA style), and employees need protection from that.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Although employees don't get those protections if they've been working for the company for less than 2 years (unless the firing is discriminatory as defined in the Equality Act), and bringing a case to Employment Tribunal is fantastically expensive and thus not common.
omeid2 8y ago
For a completely different perspective, I want to raise a few points, in no specific order. I don't believe having laws that make people hard to fire is the right solution, because a healthy relationship with your work is absolutely critical for a fulfilling job. In essence, jobs should be mutually voluntary and easy to terminate with reasonable terms and notice. I think what is more important is that there should exist sound social infrastructure and safety-nets that affords employees better negotiation power. There is nothing that makes you weaker in a negotiation than being desperate for the transaction. Let's face it, we are headed into a new era and a new industrial revolution that is going to make millions of jobs obsolete. If this sounds too much like an argument for Universal Basic Income, it is not because it is intended to be, it is because UBI may be after all the right solution going forward.
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > a new industrial revolution that is going to make millions of jobs obsolete Just like the last one.
- monksy 8y ago
  > jobs should be mutually voluntary and easy to terminate with reasonable terms and notice. I agree with you on that. But that's not what we have right now. The entire US (IANAL) is At-will employment. Which means that you can be let go for nearly any reason. There are no safety nets that will protect you if you're in the right. (I.e. The employer didn't want to hold their end of the bargain on vacation time when it's "unlimited pto") Having an internet mob going after you because you made a silly comment off the job on Twitter or that you don't agree with the current political climate is not a reasonable reason to fire someone.
anonytrary 8y ago
This is a fear of mine since an employer can fire you for basically any reason and just cite a compliant reason on paper. This is why I find it very hard to extend a relationship with an employer beyond anything other than work and I don't like being forced into recreational activities with my team.

by monksy 8y ago

What we need is stronger rights for the worker. At the moment the employer holds all of the cards and enjoys the fact that we can be let go for silly social riots like this.

vowelless 8y ago

I wonder what reasonable rights we can have to protect workers. At will employment sounds like a good idea on paper (employee can quit anytime they want), but it is assymetric, especially when large corporations are involved (employee is easily replaceable and so impact of quitting is less on corporation). Perhaps we should have at will employment for small corporations and then private unions for larger corporations? The unions will increase bargaining power of employees which could mitigate the issues brought up in the article.

ngngngng 8y ago

I debated this with a co-worker the other day. His opinion was that no matter what the reason for firing an employee, the employer can always justify it by citing performance or budgetary concerns. So the protections would be rendered useless. How's it work in Norway? They usually do a good job of making Americans look silly when we say "that can't work because..."

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
duxup 8y ago
Timing with the social outrage would present some difficulties. Also presumably this stuff crosses someone's desk and they email someone else and there starts the paper trail for the worker's lawyers.
mdekkers 8y ago
...citing performance or budgetary concerns... In the UK, where I ran a business and employed people, you need a small mountain of paperwork, collected over a fair period of time, to show that you tried in good faith to remedy the situation with the employee (in case of performance). Budgetary concerns also carry a heavy burden of proof. It really is a difficult and time-consuming path. Most medium and large companies choose to bypass the whole thing and offer a "compromise agreement", essentially "we give you x months pay right now if you sign this agreement where we mutually agree not to sue, or talk bad against eachother, and you GTFO right now". There is a significant risk of something called "constructive dismissal" meaning you made it unreasonably hard for someone to be effective in their workplace, that is decided by an employment tribunal. As an employer, the system is undoubtedly a burden, but as a human, I always found I could live with it. I had one instance where it was open-and-shut grounds for instant dismissal, and I still had to spend 4 months going through the process to ensure I was fully covered and not liable to some tribunal action. That sucked, but in the end there are many large firms that will fuck over employees without a second thought (USA style), and employees need protection from that.
- DanBC 8y ago
  Although employees don't get those protections if they've been working for the company for less than 2 years (unless the firing is discriminatory as defined in the Equality Act), and bringing a case to Employment Tribunal is fantastically expensive and thus not common.

omeid2 8y ago

For a completely different perspective, I want to raise a few points, in no specific order. I don't believe having laws that make people hard to fire is the right solution, because a healthy relationship with your work is absolutely critical for a fulfilling job. In essence, jobs should be mutually voluntary and easy to terminate with reasonable terms and notice. I think what is more important is that there should exist sound social infrastructure and safety-nets that affords employees better negotiation power. There is nothing that makes you weaker in a negotiation than being desperate for the transaction. Let's face it, we are headed into a new era and a new industrial revolution that is going to make millions of jobs obsolete. If this sounds too much like an argument for Universal Basic Income, it is not because it is intended to be, it is because UBI may be after all the right solution going forward.

paulddraper 8y ago
> a new industrial revolution that is going to make millions of jobs obsolete Just like the last one.
monksy 8y ago
> jobs should be mutually voluntary and easy to terminate with reasonable terms and notice. I agree with you on that. But that's not what we have right now. The entire US (IANAL) is At-will employment. Which means that you can be let go for nearly any reason. There are no safety nets that will protect you if you're in the right. (I.e. The employer didn't want to hold their end of the bargain on vacation time when it's "unlimited pto") Having an internet mob going after you because you made a silly comment off the job on Twitter or that you don't agree with the current political climate is not a reasonable reason to fire someone.

anonytrary 8y ago

This is a fear of mine since an employer can fire you for basically any reason and just cite a compliant reason on paper. This is why I find it very hard to extend a relationship with an employer beyond anything other than work and I don't like being forced into recreational activities with my team.