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This is a defense of violence as old as war itself. “Sure, violence is bad, but if we do it MY way there will be less in the long run!” Meanwhile people keep d

by lukev 8y ago

This is a defense of violence as old as war itself. “Sure, violence is bad, but if we do it MY way there will be less in the long run!” Meanwhile people keep dying and somehow it’s never only the bad guys who suffer.

dsr_ 8y ago
With unremarkable frequency, bomb damage assessments recharacterize deaths to fit a narrative. Civilians become collateral damage. A house becomes a base. A wedding party becomes a meeting of terrorists. Children become collaborators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruzgan_helicopter_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruzgan_helicopter_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#2003%E2%80%932011:_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#2003%E2%80%... I'm going to stop there. When war starts, it's rarely the politicians who started it who suffer.
- berbec 8y ago
  There should be a forced ammendment every time we institute the draft: deferments are not allowed for descendents of politicians who voted to institute said conscription.
PinkMilkshake 8y ago
And yet, the US is the leading military power and war is decreasing (and is at an all time low). I'm not saying they are related, I'm just saying that the opposite is obviously not true.
candiodari 8y ago
WW2 is a strong counterargument to this stance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal https://www.vox.com/2014/9/1/6084029/hitlers-invasion-of-poland-explained https://www.vox.com/2014/9/1/6084029/hitlers-invasion-of-pol... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_foreign_policy_of_the_Chamberlain_ministry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_foreign_policy_of_the... or more to the point: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/polandbetrayal.htm http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/pol... Note that the "Western Betrayal" has 2 very, very, very strong points in causing the war: 1) it factored heavily in Hitler's decision making to start the war, according to him, himself 2) it was correct decision making: the allies did not respond as they had promised, enabling further offensives with the well known consequences
- lukev 8y ago
  For the record, I do think WW2 was worth fighting. It's about as clear-cut case of national self defense as you'll find in the history books. Even people who are normally quite pacifist don't really dispute this in the general case. But we're talking about extrajudicial termination of classified targets, in civilian settings, against whom war has not been formally declared. Some of them are US citizens or citizens of our allies. This is indefensible.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    I very much doubt you would have found much support anywhere in 1939. Not in France, Britain, Belgium, Netherlands and certainly not in the US. Not even after annexing the Sudetenland, not even after the Polish invasion.

by lukev 8y ago

dsr_ 8y ago

With unremarkable frequency, bomb damage assessments recharacterize deaths to fit a narrative. Civilians become collateral damage. A house becomes a base. A wedding party becomes a meeting of terrorists. Children become collaborators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruzgan_helicopter_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruzgan_helicopter_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#2003%E2%80%932011:_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#2003%E2%80%... I'm going to stop there. When war starts, it's rarely the politicians who started it who suffer.

berbec 8y ago
There should be a forced ammendment every time we institute the draft: deferments are not allowed for descendents of politicians who voted to institute said conscription.

PinkMilkshake 8y ago

And yet, the US is the leading military power and war is decreasing (and is at an all time low). I'm not saying they are related, I'm just saying that the opposite is obviously not true.

candiodari 8y ago

WW2 is a strong counterargument to this stance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal https://www.vox.com/2014/9/1/6084029/hitlers-invasion-of-poland-explained https://www.vox.com/2014/9/1/6084029/hitlers-invasion-of-pol... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_foreign_policy_of_the_Chamberlain_ministry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_foreign_policy_of_the... or more to the point: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/polandbetrayal.htm http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/pol... Note that the "Western Betrayal" has 2 very, very, very strong points in causing the war: 1) it factored heavily in Hitler's decision making to start the war, according to him, himself 2) it was correct decision making: the allies did not respond as they had promised, enabling further offensives with the well known consequences

lukev 8y ago
For the record, I do think WW2 was worth fighting. It's about as clear-cut case of national self defense as you'll find in the history books. Even people who are normally quite pacifist don't really dispute this in the general case. But we're talking about extrajudicial termination of classified targets, in civilian settings, against whom war has not been formally declared. Some of them are US citizens or citizens of our allies. This is indefensible.
- candiodari 8y ago
  I very much doubt you would have found much support anywhere in 1939. Not in France, Britain, Belgium, Netherlands and certainly not in the US. Not even after annexing the Sudetenland, not even after the Polish invasion.