5 ms·

Maybe part of the issue is an over-emphasis on "fidelity". People have always played around - or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it

by tanbog 8y ago

Maybe part of the issue is an over-emphasis on "fidelity". People have always played around - or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it quiet - maybe the best outcome would be more open communication and understanding between couples rather than even more prescriptive social norms about how relationships should work.

mirimir 8y ago
It's not so much about fidelity as honesty.
- 1000units 8y ago
  In any case, getting raped isn't a breach of fidelity.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Never said that. Edit: But I gotta say that I'd expect my wife to share if she'd been raped. And especially if she had gotten pregnant, and had chosen to have the child. Without that level of honesty in a marriage, there arguably isn't actually a marriage. That may seem harsh, I know. But hey, I got it from Landmark. For what it's worth, while responsibility and honesty are considered key values, there is no blame.
kukx 8y ago
No. If one was raped it should be reported and the perpetrator should be prosecuted. You cannot let these people go unpunished and potentially rape others.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  That is a vastly simplistic view of rape and sexual assault and comes very close to victim blaming. In many societies there is a stigma attached to sexual assault victims, even in western society many victims get blamed: "why was she wearing that dress?", "why was she in the club on her own if she was in a relationship?", "why did she walk through the park at night on her own?", "maybe she went home with him and just regretted it the next day". As terrible as it is, for some people the best way to handle their trauma is to never speak of it and pretend it never happened. Going to the police can cause all sorts of problems, as you have to relive the trauma as you fill out your victim statement, as you go to court, as everyone around you feels pity, like you're damaged goods.
  - kukx 8y ago
    I doubt that "for some people the best way to handle their trauma is to never speak of it and pretend it never happened" is actually true. I would like to see some study that proves that. Otherwise you just empower the rapists for no justifiable reason. And even if there is some personal net benefit for not telling anyone. Is it more important than saving others from potentially the same harm?
    - qubex 8y ago
      Has it occurred to you that maybe one of the root causes of so-called ”rape culture” is that would-be rapists do indeed feel thusly empowered?
      - kukx 8y ago
        But is there a "rape culture"? I mean there are criminals that commit rape. But what are the reasons to call it a culture. As far as I know, the rape, at least in the western world, is perceived as a terrible thing and is punished by law.
        qubex 8y ago
        I’m not American. I just hear the term bandied about a lot (including by my equally-foreign, US-college educated fiancée, who has regaled me with several horror stories relating to young women on her campus).
      - 1000units 8y ago
        No, certainly not. The threat of serious legal reprisal deters criminals of all sorts, including rapists.
        lawlessone 8y ago
        Most rape trials fail to secure a conviction though, and that's when it's actually reported, majority of cases are not. >The threat of serious legal reprisal deters criminals of all sorts And yet we have plenty of crime..
1000units 8y ago
You word this as if married women being inseminated by other men isn't in the vast majority of cases an unintended consequence of completely intentional behavior. Your "being frank" is framing an incredibly rare situation as primary.
paidleaf 8y ago
> People have always played around Most people don't "play around". We have statistic proof about it. > or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it quiet I'm pretty sure most of the 23andme customers are in the US and not in the congo. By "many" women, you mean almost no women right? > maybe the best outcome would be more open communication and understanding between couples rather than even more prescriptive social norms about how relationships should work. Opening communication and understanding are the prescriptive social norm. You make it seem like cheating and rape is the norm. Also, most people agree on how relationships should work. That's how we got "prescriptive social norms".
- Bedon292 8y ago
  I am not sure over 300,000 women a year in the US is 'almost no'. That sure looks like many to me. With an estimate of somewhere in the 7-12,000 a year having children as a result. And something like 1 in 6 having been raped in their life time. Yes those are estimates, but still a significant number. Edit Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
  - paidleaf 8y ago
    > I am not sure over 300,000 women a year in the US is 'almost no'. We were talking about women getting raped, impregnated and having children unbeknownst to the father. That was the "almost no" I was talking about. > With an estimate of somewhere in the 7-12,000 a year having children as a result. An "estimate". Fine. There are about 4 million births in the US every year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/195908/number-of-births-in-the-united-states-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/195908/number-of-births-... So I'm gonna stick to "almost no" here. > And something like 1 in 6 having been raped in their life time. Yes those are estimates, but still a significant number. More estimates? By whom? Let me guess, an organization dedicated to inflating numbers? > Edit Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence Of course. I no more trust "estimates" from rainn than I do climate change "estimates" from exxon. As I said, we were talking about women getting raped, impregnated and having children unbeknownst to the father. You turned that discussion into a stealth argument about "rape culture". OP asserted that "many" spouses of "cuckolded" fathers were a result of rape. It was a very specific assertion. I responded to that, not anything about rapes in general. Why is every response on this thread pushing the "rape narrative" here? I think that 1 rape is too many, but that wasn't what we are talking about? Why inject politics into this?

by tanbog 8y ago

mirimir 8y ago

It's not so much about fidelity as honesty.

1000units 8y ago
In any case, getting raped isn't a breach of fidelity.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Never said that. Edit: But I gotta say that I'd expect my wife to share if she'd been raped. And especially if she had gotten pregnant, and had chosen to have the child. Without that level of honesty in a marriage, there arguably isn't actually a marriage. That may seem harsh, I know. But hey, I got it from Landmark. For what it's worth, while responsibility and honesty are considered key values, there is no blame.

kukx 8y ago

No. If one was raped it should be reported and the perpetrator should be prosecuted. You cannot let these people go unpunished and potentially rape others.

toomanybeersies 8y ago
That is a vastly simplistic view of rape and sexual assault and comes very close to victim blaming. In many societies there is a stigma attached to sexual assault victims, even in western society many victims get blamed: "why was she wearing that dress?", "why was she in the club on her own if she was in a relationship?", "why did she walk through the park at night on her own?", "maybe she went home with him and just regretted it the next day". As terrible as it is, for some people the best way to handle their trauma is to never speak of it and pretend it never happened. Going to the police can cause all sorts of problems, as you have to relive the trauma as you fill out your victim statement, as you go to court, as everyone around you feels pity, like you're damaged goods.
- kukx 8y ago
  I doubt that "for some people the best way to handle their trauma is to never speak of it and pretend it never happened" is actually true. I would like to see some study that proves that. Otherwise you just empower the rapists for no justifiable reason. And even if there is some personal net benefit for not telling anyone. Is it more important than saving others from potentially the same harm?
  - qubex 8y ago
    Has it occurred to you that maybe one of the root causes of so-called ”rape culture” is that would-be rapists do indeed feel thusly empowered?
    - kukx 8y ago
      But is there a "rape culture"? I mean there are criminals that commit rape. But what are the reasons to call it a culture. As far as I know, the rape, at least in the western world, is perceived as a terrible thing and is punished by law.
      - qubex 8y ago
        I’m not American. I just hear the term bandied about a lot (including by my equally-foreign, US-college educated fiancée, who has regaled me with several horror stories relating to young women on her campus).
    - 1000units 8y ago
      No, certainly not. The threat of serious legal reprisal deters criminals of all sorts, including rapists.
      - lawlessone 8y ago
        Most rape trials fail to secure a conviction though, and that's when it's actually reported, majority of cases are not. >The threat of serious legal reprisal deters criminals of all sorts And yet we have plenty of crime..

1000units 8y ago

You word this as if married women being inseminated by other men isn't in the vast majority of cases an unintended consequence of completely intentional behavior. Your "being frank" is framing an incredibly rare situation as primary.

paidleaf 8y ago

> People have always played around Most people don't "play around". We have statistic proof about it. > or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it quiet I'm pretty sure most of the 23andme customers are in the US and not in the congo. By "many" women, you mean almost no women right? > maybe the best outcome would be more open communication and understanding between couples rather than even more prescriptive social norms about how relationships should work. Opening communication and understanding are the prescriptive social norm. You make it seem like cheating and rape is the norm. Also, most people agree on how relationships should work. That's how we got "prescriptive social norms".

Bedon292 8y ago
I am not sure over 300,000 women a year in the US is 'almost no'. That sure looks like many to me. With an estimate of somewhere in the 7-12,000 a year having children as a result. And something like 1 in 6 having been raped in their life time. Yes those are estimates, but still a significant number. Edit Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
- paidleaf 8y ago
  > I am not sure over 300,000 women a year in the US is 'almost no'. We were talking about women getting raped, impregnated and having children unbeknownst to the father. That was the "almost no" I was talking about. > With an estimate of somewhere in the 7-12,000 a year having children as a result. An "estimate". Fine. There are about 4 million births in the US every year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/195908/number-of-births-in-the-united-states-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/195908/number-of-births-... So I'm gonna stick to "almost no" here. > And something like 1 in 6 having been raped in their life time. Yes those are estimates, but still a significant number. More estimates? By whom? Let me guess, an organization dedicated to inflating numbers? > Edit Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence Of course. I no more trust "estimates" from rainn than I do climate change "estimates" from exxon. As I said, we were talking about women getting raped, impregnated and having children unbeknownst to the father. You turned that discussion into a stealth argument about "rape culture". OP asserted that "many" spouses of "cuckolded" fathers were a result of rape. It was a very specific assertion. I responded to that, not anything about rapes in general. Why is every response on this thread pushing the "rape narrative" here? I think that 1 rape is too many, but that wasn't what we are talking about? Why inject politics into this?