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Yeah, that’s what my teachers said too. “Millions of years. End of conversation. Put your hand down, son.” It always seemed a little dismissive of the potentia

Yeah, that’s what my teachers said too. “Millions of years. End of conversation. Put your hand down, son.” It always seemed a little dismissive of the potential of our now very complex organisms to use feedback if only purely random mutations were at play. Instead of random mutations full stop, how about informed best guess mutations targeted at potentially stressed areas of the body.

delinka 8y ago
While I suppose "informed best guess" might be possible, I don't see how this 'intelligence' makes it into the process. Liver more stressed in this particular organism? Tweak the DNA in the reproductive organs. I don't think we even have a theory that could explain how that should work. Maybe we'll get there one day. But I suspect, as has been demonstrated in labs with bacteria, that it really is random. When their environment begins to show signs of contamination, the bacteria's inner workings don't use an "informed best guess" when mutating for reproduction - the random changes result in bacteria suited for death with exposure to the contamination, and bacteria that are more resistant to the contamination. Guess which ones survive to pass on the trait.
dahlueblojen 8y ago
To be fair most grade school teachers just have a bachelor's in their subject (if you're lucky) (also don't include masters of education, that's about teaching, not the subject matter being taught) that they aquired a decade or so ago. It's not surprising if what they know is well what they were taught and not what is most current.
- jedberg 8y ago
  That's very dismissive of teachers. Yes it's true, some teachers are lazy like this. But you got a few things wrong. First off, if you teach at the middle or high school level, you have to have a masters in the subject you teach. It's called a single subject credential. Secondly, just like college professors, who continue to learn about new developments in their field, a lot of K-12 teachers, and especially 7-12 teachers, do that too. They also read papers and also attend conferences to learn the latest developments in their field.
  - dahlueblojen 8y ago
    I'm highly suspicious that your first claim is not true for all U.S. pubic schools (or even a sufficiently significant portion). I'm sure it's the case in some States. 2nd case is probably fair, though I think a lot of people, myself included, have has experiences with teachers that definitely didn't pay attention in those seminars if they attended. (And in my case that's just with 1.5 years of middle school)
  - extra88 8y ago
    > if you teach at the middle or high school level, you have to have a masters in the subject you teach. That’s not true, some states don’t require a Masters in any subject, let alone in one relevant to what they’re teaching. https://study.com/articles/High_School_Teacher_Requirements_and_Career_Information_for_Those_Interested_in_Teaching_High_School.html https://study.com/articles/High_School_Teacher_Requirements_... https://teach.com/become/teaching-credential/state-requirements/ https://teach.com/become/teaching-credential/state-requireme...
extra88 8y ago
That would require an intelligence to be informed and to make a guess. There is none.
- CuriouslyC 8y ago
  Would you consider yourself an informed intelligence making guesses? What makes you different from the rest of the universe? Do you think the scale at which we exist is somehow special?
  - extra88 8y ago
    Yes. Lots of things; I’m warmer, I contain more matter by volume than average, and I emit information in response to queries, even stupid ones. Yes.
    - ratacat 8y ago
      Is it possible that the information emitted by the universe to queries simply escapes you.
aperiodic 8y ago
Somewhat related, Leslie Valiant believes that if evolution performs a random search in genome space, it is computationally impossible for it to have led to the complexity that it's produced in only a few billion years. He's written a fascinating paper exploring what other algorithms besides random search could perform the computational task required and are also biologically plausible: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/2643031/valiant_evolvability.pdf?sequence=4 https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/2643031/valiant_...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- annamargot 8y ago
  Very cool. Thank you

delinka 8y ago

While I suppose "informed best guess" might be possible, I don't see how this 'intelligence' makes it into the process. Liver more stressed in this particular organism? Tweak the DNA in the reproductive organs. I don't think we even have a theory that could explain how that should work. Maybe we'll get there one day. But I suspect, as has been demonstrated in labs with bacteria, that it really is random. When their environment begins to show signs of contamination, the bacteria's inner workings don't use an "informed best guess" when mutating for reproduction - the random changes result in bacteria suited for death with exposure to the contamination, and bacteria that are more resistant to the contamination. Guess which ones survive to pass on the trait.

dahlueblojen 8y ago

To be fair most grade school teachers just have a bachelor's in their subject (if you're lucky) (also don't include masters of education, that's about teaching, not the subject matter being taught) that they aquired a decade or so ago. It's not surprising if what they know is well what they were taught and not what is most current.

jedberg 8y ago
That's very dismissive of teachers. Yes it's true, some teachers are lazy like this. But you got a few things wrong. First off, if you teach at the middle or high school level, you have to have a masters in the subject you teach. It's called a single subject credential. Secondly, just like college professors, who continue to learn about new developments in their field, a lot of K-12 teachers, and especially 7-12 teachers, do that too. They also read papers and also attend conferences to learn the latest developments in their field.
- dahlueblojen 8y ago
  I'm highly suspicious that your first claim is not true for all U.S. pubic schools (or even a sufficiently significant portion). I'm sure it's the case in some States. 2nd case is probably fair, though I think a lot of people, myself included, have has experiences with teachers that definitely didn't pay attention in those seminars if they attended. (And in my case that's just with 1.5 years of middle school)
- extra88 8y ago
  > if you teach at the middle or high school level, you have to have a masters in the subject you teach. That’s not true, some states don’t require a Masters in any subject, let alone in one relevant to what they’re teaching. https://study.com/articles/High_School_Teacher_Requirements_and_Career_Information_for_Those_Interested_in_Teaching_High_School.html https://study.com/articles/High_School_Teacher_Requirements_... https://teach.com/become/teaching-credential/state-requirements/ https://teach.com/become/teaching-credential/state-requireme...

extra88 8y ago

That would require an intelligence to be informed and to make a guess. There is none.

CuriouslyC 8y ago
Would you consider yourself an informed intelligence making guesses? What makes you different from the rest of the universe? Do you think the scale at which we exist is somehow special?
- extra88 8y ago
  Yes. Lots of things; I’m warmer, I contain more matter by volume than average, and I emit information in response to queries, even stupid ones. Yes.
  - ratacat 8y ago
    Is it possible that the information emitted by the universe to queries simply escapes you.

aperiodic 8y ago

Somewhat related, Leslie Valiant believes that if evolution performs a random search in genome space, it is computationally impossible for it to have led to the complexity that it's produced in only a few billion years. He's written a fascinating paper exploring what other algorithms besides random search could perform the computational task required and are also biologically plausible: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/2643031/valiant_evolvability.pdf?sequence=4 https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/2643031/valiant_...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
annamargot 8y ago
Very cool. Thank you