7 ms·

I've watched his videos, and they are awesome.. but I am also somewhat surprised he hasn't electrocuted himself yet. All that said, his point is 100% on base. r

I've watched his videos, and they are awesome.. but I am also somewhat surprised he hasn't electrocuted himself yet. All that said, his point is 100% on base. right now Tesla has gotten around without addressing right-to-repair issues. The model 3 is supposed to be a mainstream car. One of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger yet on my deposit, is because I am not convinced that anyone other then Tesla can repair it.

Waterluvian 8y ago
I watch this guy on YouTube, Louis Rossman, who fixes MacBooks. This reminds me exactly of his experiences. Macs are increasingly more difficult to repair and Apple generally wants to own the repair experience so they can funnel you towards a new purchase. Cars these days can run half a million miles in their lifetime if you treat them right and replace the pieces that break. Could you imagine a future where cars followed the Apple model?
- joselreyes 8y ago
  I actually think Apple’s repair system is one of the reasons they have success. Most customers can’t repair their stuff so having a trustworthy place to go to is a really nice safety blanket. Compare that to most other phone or computer manufacturers where you have to ship your stuff or do it yourself and risk voiding warranties. I imagine eventually Tesla will offer an Apple-esque “Certified Repair” service option to increase their ability to help customers with non-Tesla employees.
  - pietroglyph 8y ago
    I think the biggest issue with Apple's "repair" model is the amount of repairing that actually goes on. As a result of the increasing board integration of Apple computers and Apple's repair policy, a single resistor kicking the bucket means a full board replacement that will set you back a good fraction of what you paid for the computer in the first place, at an Apple certified repair center. Even worse is the outright hostility to 3rd party repair shops who instead opt for (more difficult), but ultimately less expensive (for the custom and the environment) component-level repair. You won't be getting any documentation or spare parts from Apple.
    - greglindahl 8y ago
      I don't think I've had a single resistor repaired in any of the thousands of servers I've owned in the past 20 years.
      - pietroglyph 8y ago
        I picked a component off the top of my head. Water damage is almost always the culprit in these repairs, which doesn't affect most servers (except for these [0] maybe?) Louis Rossman's channel on Youtube [1] can give you better information than I can. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17444076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17444076 [1]: https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup
      - rasz 8y ago
        I dont think you shipped a whole Rack back because a single fan was broken either.
        greglindahl 8y ago
        Fans are a FRU. The complaint was about sub-fru items.
        rasz 8y ago
        There are no sub-fru items in Apple ecosystem, in fact there are no frus either.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - Robotbeat 8y ago
        I’ve had capacitors repaired.
        8y ago
- jgibson 8y ago
  From an engineering standpoint, Apples devices became hard to repair because they optimized for weight and size over maintainability. Would Tesla do the same? Size isn't going to be something they care about because cars are all the same size and thats what people want. From a business standpoint it doesn't make much sense either. Tesla offers very long warranties (I believe is 4/8 years for vehicle/drivetrain), so making things hard to repair would likely be costing them money. For the next 10-20 years, assuming they survive, there will be more new Teslas under warranty than older models as the production rate keeps increasing. Electric cars are so much easier to repair in my opinion because of their simplicity, with the exception of the high voltage stuff, which I won't touch. Replacing the drive unit in most electric cars is like 2 sets of wires and 4-8 bolts. Ever tried replacing the camshaft in an internal combustion vehicle? I'd say the difference is, the aftermarket car parts business is very good at making camshafts, bearings and pistons, but not so good at making high power inverters and charging systems. But that'll change as electric vehicles become more common.
  - simion314 8y ago
    >From an engineering standpoint, Apples devices became hard to repair because they optimized for weight and size This is FALSE, small size do not explain Apple not publishing schematics, not selling parts, attempting to stop third parties to repair Apple products by sending them to justice etc. I think you need to research more this subject and if you are honest with yourself you will stop excusing Apple for this.
    - oneplane 8y ago
      This is FALSE as well, Apple doesn't publish them for the same reason many other companies doesn't publish them: IP/Lawyer departments. This is also why the other stuff happens. Basically, whenever a company says: we don't want third party X to do Y because of user experience, it mostly boils down to 10% user experience, 10% PR & Marketing, and 80% legal crap.
      - simion314 8y ago
        This is FALSE again, they go against people or sites that publish schematics or instructions on how to fix things, they go against people that want to buy replacement parts, they say is for keeping the brand standards but is for the money. Imagine your side mirror of your car is broken(say a Ford). Now imagine Ford is not allowing you to buy any other brand of mirror to replace it, you can't even buy the Ford mirror to replace it yourself either, you must go to a Ford shop pay 10x more for the mirror replacement but in some cases the guys there say that is to expensive to try replace only the mirror and they will change the entire car body but all is fine if you bought the extra insurgence package, if not you will pay 25%-50% the original full car price to have it fixed. Again, inform yourself, this thread has many references and be honest with yourself, you can like Apple for the things that they do right and don't try to excuse them for the things they do wrong.
- oneplane 8y ago
  > so they can funnel you towards a new purchase. That hardly seems like a valid business plan for such a large company. If they were to do it purely to create such a construction, they'd be losing clients and money faster than you can hear a YouTuber rant about it. It seems that everyone is assuming malice in every case while that is not often the cause. Internal Lawyer/security/IP departments, DFM and business rules are like 99.999999% of the reasons why things are the way they are at any large company that tries to serve markets above the bottom/budget line.
slfnflctd 8y ago
This seems to me like more of an industry-wide thing than just a Tesla thing. I'm not happy about it, either, but I wouldn't recommend most car owners take their Leaf, Volt or even Prius to anyone but the manufacturer for major service at this point. There are probably quite a few more cars I would add to that list without hesitation, and it's only going to grow.

Waterluvian 8y ago

I watch this guy on YouTube, Louis Rossman, who fixes MacBooks. This reminds me exactly of his experiences. Macs are increasingly more difficult to repair and Apple generally wants to own the repair experience so they can funnel you towards a new purchase. Cars these days can run half a million miles in their lifetime if you treat them right and replace the pieces that break. Could you imagine a future where cars followed the Apple model?

joselreyes 8y ago
I actually think Apple’s repair system is one of the reasons they have success. Most customers can’t repair their stuff so having a trustworthy place to go to is a really nice safety blanket. Compare that to most other phone or computer manufacturers where you have to ship your stuff or do it yourself and risk voiding warranties. I imagine eventually Tesla will offer an Apple-esque “Certified Repair” service option to increase their ability to help customers with non-Tesla employees.
- pietroglyph 8y ago
  I think the biggest issue with Apple's "repair" model is the amount of repairing that actually goes on. As a result of the increasing board integration of Apple computers and Apple's repair policy, a single resistor kicking the bucket means a full board replacement that will set you back a good fraction of what you paid for the computer in the first place, at an Apple certified repair center. Even worse is the outright hostility to 3rd party repair shops who instead opt for (more difficult), but ultimately less expensive (for the custom and the environment) component-level repair. You won't be getting any documentation or spare parts from Apple.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    I don't think I've had a single resistor repaired in any of the thousands of servers I've owned in the past 20 years.
    - pietroglyph 8y ago
      I picked a component off the top of my head. Water damage is almost always the culprit in these repairs, which doesn't affect most servers (except for these [0] maybe?) Louis Rossman's channel on Youtube [1] can give you better information than I can. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17444076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17444076 [1]: https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup
    - rasz 8y ago
      I dont think you shipped a whole Rack back because a single fan was broken either.
      - greglindahl 8y ago
        Fans are a FRU. The complaint was about sub-fru items.
        rasz 8y ago
        There are no sub-fru items in Apple ecosystem, in fact there are no frus either.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - Robotbeat 8y ago
      I’ve had capacitors repaired.
      - 8y ago
jgibson 8y ago
From an engineering standpoint, Apples devices became hard to repair because they optimized for weight and size over maintainability. Would Tesla do the same? Size isn't going to be something they care about because cars are all the same size and thats what people want. From a business standpoint it doesn't make much sense either. Tesla offers very long warranties (I believe is 4/8 years for vehicle/drivetrain), so making things hard to repair would likely be costing them money. For the next 10-20 years, assuming they survive, there will be more new Teslas under warranty than older models as the production rate keeps increasing. Electric cars are so much easier to repair in my opinion because of their simplicity, with the exception of the high voltage stuff, which I won't touch. Replacing the drive unit in most electric cars is like 2 sets of wires and 4-8 bolts. Ever tried replacing the camshaft in an internal combustion vehicle? I'd say the difference is, the aftermarket car parts business is very good at making camshafts, bearings and pistons, but not so good at making high power inverters and charging systems. But that'll change as electric vehicles become more common.
- simion314 8y ago
  >From an engineering standpoint, Apples devices became hard to repair because they optimized for weight and size This is FALSE, small size do not explain Apple not publishing schematics, not selling parts, attempting to stop third parties to repair Apple products by sending them to justice etc. I think you need to research more this subject and if you are honest with yourself you will stop excusing Apple for this.
  - oneplane 8y ago
    This is FALSE as well, Apple doesn't publish them for the same reason many other companies doesn't publish them: IP/Lawyer departments. This is also why the other stuff happens. Basically, whenever a company says: we don't want third party X to do Y because of user experience, it mostly boils down to 10% user experience, 10% PR & Marketing, and 80% legal crap.
    - simion314 8y ago
      This is FALSE again, they go against people or sites that publish schematics or instructions on how to fix things, they go against people that want to buy replacement parts, they say is for keeping the brand standards but is for the money. Imagine your side mirror of your car is broken(say a Ford). Now imagine Ford is not allowing you to buy any other brand of mirror to replace it, you can't even buy the Ford mirror to replace it yourself either, you must go to a Ford shop pay 10x more for the mirror replacement but in some cases the guys there say that is to expensive to try replace only the mirror and they will change the entire car body but all is fine if you bought the extra insurgence package, if not you will pay 25%-50% the original full car price to have it fixed. Again, inform yourself, this thread has many references and be honest with yourself, you can like Apple for the things that they do right and don't try to excuse them for the things they do wrong.
oneplane 8y ago
> so they can funnel you towards a new purchase. That hardly seems like a valid business plan for such a large company. If they were to do it purely to create such a construction, they'd be losing clients and money faster than you can hear a YouTuber rant about it. It seems that everyone is assuming malice in every case while that is not often the cause. Internal Lawyer/security/IP departments, DFM and business rules are like 99.999999% of the reasons why things are the way they are at any large company that tries to serve markets above the bottom/budget line.

slfnflctd 8y ago

This seems to me like more of an industry-wide thing than just a Tesla thing. I'm not happy about it, either, but I wouldn't recommend most car owners take their Leaf, Volt or even Prius to anyone but the manufacturer for major service at this point. There are probably quite a few more cars I would add to that list without hesitation, and it's only going to grow.