6 ms·

What are the constraints?

rayiner 8y ago
It's a process that's still shaking out. I strongly suspect dating coworkers will be on the chopping block. Anecdotally: I've never heard a woman say "you know, I wish more people would ask me out at work." They view it as an imposition. Driving those changes will be technology like Tinder. By making the market for dating more efficient, it will reduce the need to permit romantic solicitations in other contexts.
- sverige 8y ago
  I've had that rule my entire career. I also avoid ever being alone with women at work so that there is no question that I could have done something untoward without a witness. That has prevented a lot of problems for me. It has also probably hindered the careers of some of the women who were my direct and indirect reports, but that's not my problem. I've been waiting for the legislation against those unintended consequences for a long time now. It's closer than ever, I can feel it in my bones.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - harryh 8y ago
    Intentionally hindering the careers of people that report to you makes you a crappy manager. Doing it in a sexist way makes this doubly true. You should stop doing that.
    - sverige 8y ago
      I never said I hindered their careers. I have promoted and supported quite a few women over the years. In fact, one of them is now a senior VP at a Fortune 100. I take no credit for that. She was extremely talented. OTOH, I certainly could have hindered her advancement but did not obviously. In fact I warmly recommended her for a promotion and later gave her very good references when she moved on to other companies. These were important steps in her career. Others have continued to advance as well, if not quite as spectacularly. What I did say is that there are some who I did not help as much as I probably could have. They could have possibly benefited from some private coaching. I am not a crappy manager for not doing that. I am a good husband and provider for never allowing a situation to occur that could have put my career in jeopardy. I didn't make the rules, the government (and especially the courts) did. And calling me sexist is a cheap shot that only proves my point. Accusations are easy; proof is hard. This is especially true when you take a defensive position against the known risks of being falsely accused, as I have been several times.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        You literally just said you hindered their careers, in those exact words. The comment you wrote is there for everyone to read. Your edit to that last comment doesn't clear anything up. It's non sequitur logic. "I'm not a crappy manager, I'm a good provider"?
        sverige 8y ago
        I said my defensive stance on this "probably" hindered the careers of "some" of them. I never said I intentionally hindered the careers of any of them. When facing a choice of going above and beyond to help develop a female employee's career and risking my own career (and my family's well-being) by exposing myself to the very real and well-known risk of being accused of sexual harassment, I have chosen selfishly. (Here is where you tell us all how you would choose to risk your career to advance your female employee "because it's the right thing to do.") It's exactly this sort of rhetoric that makes it difficult to have any rational discussion about how best to develop talent (whether men or women) in the current climate. The thesis that MeToo is more harmful than helpful is unpopular, I know, but thankfully no one has to defend its helpfulness because discussion of the realities involved is forbidden.
        tptacek 8y ago
        You were right the first time. You discriminated your behavior based on the gender of your reports, knowing that doing so harmed the careers of the women who reported to you. It's a little weird that you think you can somehow rationalize your way out of that. It's even weirder that you think that your own perceived self-interest somehow immunizes you. You said it yourself! Own it! And then stop doing it!
        sverige 8y ago
        I treated the men on my teams exactly the same way. There was no discrimination. They were all treated equally. It's a little weird that you think you have all the information you need to pass judgment on my career from a few short comments on an internet forum. It's even weirder that you haven't made any substantive comment or query on how that policy played out in real life, but rather resorted instantly to shrill pronouncements on my character. If you can't look back over your career and see where some things you did might have been harmful to some of your employees, you either lack self-awareness or you never had any employees. I'm guessing it's the latter. You have way too many internet points for someone with real responsibility for other people's well-being at work. Finally, I no longer manage people, so I have stopped doing it. I hope you can sleep now.
- DanAndersen 8y ago
  As someone who has never used Tinder (and doubt any success if I were to try), my impression was that it was more of a one-night stand / casual hookup sort of thing rather than looking for long-term relationships. Is this an incorrect perception I have?
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > They view it as an imposition. Are you arguing that women would never want a relationship with someone they met at work?
  - tptacek 8y ago
    He's arguing what he said he's arguing: that women he's talked to or heard about view being asked out on dates by coworkers as an imposition. I've heard exactly the same thing.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Do people ever like being asked out by people they are not attracted to? Isn't that always an imposition, regardless of the venue?
      - tedunangst 8y ago
        If too many bros hit on you at the bar, you can leave and go to the bar next door. If too many bros hit on you at work, sure, you can quit, but that's rather more disruptive to your life.
        skookumchuck 8y ago
        I've seen many coworkers have passionate love affairs and marriages. Are they monsters? Would you deny them?
        tptacek 8y ago
        No, but I would discipline a subordinate who was the subject of complaints about hitting on coworkers, and fire a subordinate who hit on one of their own subordinates.
        skookumchuck 8y ago
        Back in the day, Microsoft female employees were known to wear t-shirts with "Marry Me Bill" written on them. As we all know, Bill did marry one of his subordinates, and it is apparently a happy relationship. I know another Microsoft employee who is now happily married to his assistant. Office romances are very commonplace, I recall reading somewhere that 40% of married couples met at work. Interested in your opinion. BTW, if someone continues to ask for dates after being told "no", then I'd agree that is harassment and must stop.
sverige 8y ago
Just don't do it. That is the safest position to take.

It's a process that's still shaking out. I strongly suspect dating coworkers will be on the chopping block. Anecdotally: I've never heard a woman say "you know, I wish more people would ask me out at work." They view it as an imposition. Driving those changes will be technology like Tinder. By making the market for dating more efficient, it will reduce the need to permit romantic solicitations in other contexts.

sverige 8y ago
I've had that rule my entire career. I also avoid ever being alone with women at work so that there is no question that I could have done something untoward without a witness. That has prevented a lot of problems for me. It has also probably hindered the careers of some of the women who were my direct and indirect reports, but that's not my problem. I've been waiting for the legislation against those unintended consequences for a long time now. It's closer than ever, I can feel it in my bones.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- harryh 8y ago
  Intentionally hindering the careers of people that report to you makes you a crappy manager. Doing it in a sexist way makes this doubly true. You should stop doing that.
  - sverige 8y ago
    I never said I hindered their careers. I have promoted and supported quite a few women over the years. In fact, one of them is now a senior VP at a Fortune 100. I take no credit for that. She was extremely talented. OTOH, I certainly could have hindered her advancement but did not obviously. In fact I warmly recommended her for a promotion and later gave her very good references when she moved on to other companies. These were important steps in her career. Others have continued to advance as well, if not quite as spectacularly. What I did say is that there are some who I did not help as much as I probably could have. They could have possibly benefited from some private coaching. I am not a crappy manager for not doing that. I am a good husband and provider for never allowing a situation to occur that could have put my career in jeopardy. I didn't make the rules, the government (and especially the courts) did. And calling me sexist is a cheap shot that only proves my point. Accusations are easy; proof is hard. This is especially true when you take a defensive position against the known risks of being falsely accused, as I have been several times.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      You literally just said you hindered their careers, in those exact words. The comment you wrote is there for everyone to read. Your edit to that last comment doesn't clear anything up. It's non sequitur logic. "I'm not a crappy manager, I'm a good provider"?
      - sverige 8y ago
        I said my defensive stance on this "probably" hindered the careers of "some" of them. I never said I intentionally hindered the careers of any of them. When facing a choice of going above and beyond to help develop a female employee's career and risking my own career (and my family's well-being) by exposing myself to the very real and well-known risk of being accused of sexual harassment, I have chosen selfishly. (Here is where you tell us all how you would choose to risk your career to advance your female employee "because it's the right thing to do.") It's exactly this sort of rhetoric that makes it difficult to have any rational discussion about how best to develop talent (whether men or women) in the current climate. The thesis that MeToo is more harmful than helpful is unpopular, I know, but thankfully no one has to defend its helpfulness because discussion of the realities involved is forbidden.
        tptacek 8y ago
        You were right the first time. You discriminated your behavior based on the gender of your reports, knowing that doing so harmed the careers of the women who reported to you. It's a little weird that you think you can somehow rationalize your way out of that. It's even weirder that you think that your own perceived self-interest somehow immunizes you. You said it yourself! Own it! And then stop doing it!
        sverige 8y ago
        I treated the men on my teams exactly the same way. There was no discrimination. They were all treated equally. It's a little weird that you think you have all the information you need to pass judgment on my career from a few short comments on an internet forum. It's even weirder that you haven't made any substantive comment or query on how that policy played out in real life, but rather resorted instantly to shrill pronouncements on my character. If you can't look back over your career and see where some things you did might have been harmful to some of your employees, you either lack self-awareness or you never had any employees. I'm guessing it's the latter. You have way too many internet points for someone with real responsibility for other people's well-being at work. Finally, I no longer manage people, so I have stopped doing it. I hope you can sleep now.
DanAndersen 8y ago
As someone who has never used Tinder (and doubt any success if I were to try), my impression was that it was more of a one-night stand / casual hookup sort of thing rather than looking for long-term relationships. Is this an incorrect perception I have?
skookumchuck 8y ago
> They view it as an imposition. Are you arguing that women would never want a relationship with someone they met at work?
- tptacek 8y ago
  He's arguing what he said he's arguing: that women he's talked to or heard about view being asked out on dates by coworkers as an imposition. I've heard exactly the same thing.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Do people ever like being asked out by people they are not attracted to? Isn't that always an imposition, regardless of the venue?
    - tedunangst 8y ago
      If too many bros hit on you at the bar, you can leave and go to the bar next door. If too many bros hit on you at work, sure, you can quit, but that's rather more disruptive to your life.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        I've seen many coworkers have passionate love affairs and marriages. Are they monsters? Would you deny them?
        tptacek 8y ago
        No, but I would discipline a subordinate who was the subject of complaints about hitting on coworkers, and fire a subordinate who hit on one of their own subordinates.
        skookumchuck 8y ago
        Back in the day, Microsoft female employees were known to wear t-shirts with "Marry Me Bill" written on them. As we all know, Bill did marry one of his subordinates, and it is apparently a happy relationship. I know another Microsoft employee who is now happily married to his assistant. Office romances are very commonplace, I recall reading somewhere that 40% of married couples met at work. Interested in your opinion. BTW, if someone continues to ask for dates after being told "no", then I'd agree that is harassment and must stop.

sverige 8y ago

Just don't do it. That is the safest position to take.