8 ms·

The Failure Mode of Clever (2010)

105 points by Gormisdomai 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sbjs 8y ago
(2010)
- tlb 8y ago
  Edited title, thanks.
sbjs 8y ago
This is especially important when dealing with potential clients. Can't risk putting them off and losing that relationship! Wait til you get to know them, go to the bar and have a few drinks first, see if they have the same humor as you, and then let loose and joke around freely. It also helps to not have a negative or dark sense of humor or personality in general. More people have one than not, but they'll also be quicker to turn on you, so the long-term risk is still too high.
Havoc 8y ago
Personally I've noticed I tend towards passive aggressive as "failure mode". Which plays out as "being difficult". e.g. Authority figure tells me something is X and I think they're wrong. Say as much, but it doesn't stick. End result is I go with X but with lots of resistance. (Not helpful for career) I'd also venture that what the author describes - online interactions are a rather unique ballgame. IRL I know when I'm the smartest person in the room. Online there is always a real chance that you're arguing against a triple PhD that can school you till the end of time without breaking a sweat, but was just being modest & polite.
yahnusername 8y ago
I like to think about communication in four tiers from best to worst In-person: all context clues available Video: screen acts as barrier; latency inhibits rapport Voice: all visual information missing Text: all visual and tonal information missing The article's advice rings more and more true the further down this list you go
TipVFL 8y ago
While I agree that the failure mode of being clever can be asshole, I really don't think that's the default failure mode most of the time. I wish he had provided some examples so I could have a clearer grasp on exactly what he means by clever and asshole. I feel like the advice should be more like, "If you're going to be clever, make sure it's the right tone for the audience, and that the failure mode of your joke isn't asshole".
- TheRealPomax 8y ago
  So... do what the post from 2010 already says? Because it tells you to be clever once you know your audience will appreciate your brand of clever.
  - TipVFL 8y ago
    You're never going to know that for sure, the more important part is that if you're going to try being clever make sure it can't be misinterpreted as you being an asshole.
Animats 8y ago
This mistake goes back to "Romeo and Juliet", at least.
fireattack 8y ago
This article itself kind of falls into that, isn't it? :p
- jplasmeier 8y ago
  This comment itself kind of falls into that, isn't it? :p
- cryptonector 8y ago
  That post is not a private communication, so, "no".
rundigen12 8y ago
There once was a documentary about a small group of British intellectuals (who also happened to be musical virtuosos) in which one of them asserted that the decision boundary between clever and stupid can have arbitrarily small width.
hadrien01 8y ago
For some reason this page displayed only its green background for a few seconds. Did anyone else have this problem? Edit: just checked, those assholes added an 8-second css animation that doesn't display the page for people that disable javascript...
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  You'll get a much nicer page that renders just fine w/o javascript if you chop "/amp/?__twitter_impression=true" off the end of the URL: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/06/16/the-failure-state-of-clever/ https://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/06/16/the-failure-state-of-...
  - genericid 8y ago
    The original URL worked fine for me without Javascript.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
JasonFruit 8y ago
Without more context, this feels like vaguebooking: it seems like it's aimed at a particular person or type of person, but it leaves me guessing at the target. Maybe that means it's me. I wish there were some examples so I knew what kind of clever the author had in mind.
- bena 8y ago
  That's kind of what I got as well. It's almost like a halfpology. He's basically saying "Sorry you thought I was an asshole, I was just trying to be clever" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtXkD1BC564 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtXkD1BC564
- actuallyalys 8y ago
  Examples would help, but there's a clue in what he suggests as an alternative: "be polite and to the point". I think any type of cleverness that's indirect or could be perceived as impolite is the kind of cleverness he's talking about.
  - JasonFruit 8y ago
    That's a very helpful perspective.
- smallnamespace 8y ago
  Well, I know it's definitely aimed at me. Sometimes I make jokes that go over the recipient's head (almost never directed at them); it makes them feel a bit dumb and either makes me look like a jerk or poor at communicating. I've tried to pay a lot more to context (what do I know about the person whom I'm talking to? what are their interests? what do they probably know about, and what not?), but it's still a work in progress. In the meantime, most of my jokes, puns, or wit will get cut.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  It probably has something to do with the on-going saga of his relationship with the "Sad Puppies" crowd, though I think the Sad Puppies didn't actually form until years later. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if it were an oblique response to something someone tweeted at him. Getting more specific than that would probably require doing some Twitter archaeology, and I doubt that would be a particularly edifying enterprise. As entertainment options go, watching Scalzi get into minor spats with people who don't like leftist SF/F figures is right up there with reading YouTube comments.
ouid 8y ago
The author of this should find some way of dealing with his social anxiety.
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  I would guess it's about some aspiring author type who tried to impress Scalzi (a published author) in email and failed badly. It probably wasn't bad enough for Scalzi to want to embarrass the emailer by identifying them by name. This may not be the first time Scalzi received an email like this from someone, leading to the post as a kind of "public service message".
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  I take it you're not familiar with John Scalzi at all? He's an enormously forthright speaker. Perhaps you should find some way of dealing with your passive-aggressive tendencies?
andrepd 8y ago
Maybe I'm not... clever enough, but I cannot understand what the hell this guy is on about.
shawn 8y ago
Most of the comments seem to divide into two categories: those who have experienced this failure mode, and those attacking the author. As someone who has learned not to do this, here is what the author is saying. You subconsciously care about yourself more than the person you're talking to. When you want something from them, that's a bad idea. Those two sentences, if internalized, will cure you of trying to be clever. There's no room for clever when you have to be effective. At least, not manufactured clever.
- sbjs 8y ago
  You can still care about yourself more than the person but at the same time want something from them badly enough that you'll reverse this when you interact with them. It's called sucking up.
  - sbjs 8y ago
    To clarify, I don't recommend it. Just giving food for thought.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    You think attempting to be polite when you're asking for a favor is "sucking up"?
- franciscop 8y ago
  But the implicit act of comunication is because you want something regarding the person you are talking with, right? Even if it's offering something, you _still_ want them to accept it. I learned a lot about this through StackOverflow questions. Yes, you want your answer. But you have to be willing to first try very hard by yourself, and to make sure you make it easy for people to answer it to understand you quick and easy.
samirez 8y ago
Recruiters would do well to read this. Have noticed an uptick in 'clever' outreaches lately. While they don't necessarily cross over into 'asshole', then definitely make me want to avoid a potentially cringey conversation.
jcahill 8y ago
semicolons are irony punctuation in prose. https://www.google.com/search?q=too+clever+by+half https://www.google.com/search?q=too+clever+by+half
m0llusk 8y ago
This fails to differentiate between intention, action, and interpretation. Wanting to stand out from the crowd, being clever, having a clever idea, and being an asshole are all judgements. What is the intention? What actions might address that intention? Privacy in communication is emphasized, but general points like this apply to all communication. References might be missed, so be careful with them especially the first time. What seems especially odd is that this post is an apparently unintentional example of the failure mode being discussed. Instead of directly talking about the risk of misunderstanding and how to limit that using simplification a bunch of colorful but ultimately distracting discourse keeps the focus on judgements about character and intent and assembling the clever asshole strawman.
londons_explore 8y ago
This article would be strengthened by a good set of examples.

105 points by Gormisdomai 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sbjs 8y ago

(2010)

tlb 8y ago
Edited title, thanks.

sbjs 8y ago

This is especially important when dealing with potential clients. Can't risk putting them off and losing that relationship! Wait til you get to know them, go to the bar and have a few drinks first, see if they have the same humor as you, and then let loose and joke around freely. It also helps to not have a negative or dark sense of humor or personality in general. More people have one than not, but they'll also be quicker to turn on you, so the long-term risk is still too high.

Havoc 8y ago

Personally I've noticed I tend towards passive aggressive as "failure mode". Which plays out as "being difficult". e.g. Authority figure tells me something is X and I think they're wrong. Say as much, but it doesn't stick. End result is I go with X but with lots of resistance. (Not helpful for career) I'd also venture that what the author describes - online interactions are a rather unique ballgame. IRL I know when I'm the smartest person in the room. Online there is always a real chance that you're arguing against a triple PhD that can school you till the end of time without breaking a sweat, but was just being modest & polite.

yahnusername 8y ago

I like to think about communication in four tiers from best to worst In-person: all context clues available Video: screen acts as barrier; latency inhibits rapport Voice: all visual information missing Text: all visual and tonal information missing The article's advice rings more and more true the further down this list you go

TipVFL 8y ago

While I agree that the failure mode of being clever can be asshole, I really don't think that's the default failure mode most of the time. I wish he had provided some examples so I could have a clearer grasp on exactly what he means by clever and asshole. I feel like the advice should be more like, "If you're going to be clever, make sure it's the right tone for the audience, and that the failure mode of your joke isn't asshole".

TheRealPomax 8y ago
So... do what the post from 2010 already says? Because it tells you to be clever once you know your audience will appreciate your brand of clever.
- TipVFL 8y ago
  You're never going to know that for sure, the more important part is that if you're going to try being clever make sure it can't be misinterpreted as you being an asshole.

Animats 8y ago

This mistake goes back to "Romeo and Juliet", at least.

fireattack 8y ago

This article itself kind of falls into that, isn't it? :p

jplasmeier 8y ago
This comment itself kind of falls into that, isn't it? :p
cryptonector 8y ago
That post is not a private communication, so, "no".

rundigen12 8y ago

There once was a documentary about a small group of British intellectuals (who also happened to be musical virtuosos) in which one of them asserted that the decision boundary between clever and stupid can have arbitrarily small width.

hadrien01 8y ago

For some reason this page displayed only its green background for a few seconds. Did anyone else have this problem? Edit: just checked, those assholes added an 8-second css animation that doesn't display the page for people that disable javascript...

bunderbunder 8y ago
You'll get a much nicer page that renders just fine w/o javascript if you chop "/amp/?__twitter_impression=true" off the end of the URL: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/06/16/the-failure-state-of-clever/ https://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/06/16/the-failure-state-of-...
- genericid 8y ago
  The original URL worked fine for me without Javascript.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

JasonFruit 8y ago

Without more context, this feels like vaguebooking: it seems like it's aimed at a particular person or type of person, but it leaves me guessing at the target. Maybe that means it's me. I wish there were some examples so I knew what kind of clever the author had in mind.

bena 8y ago
That's kind of what I got as well. It's almost like a halfpology. He's basically saying "Sorry you thought I was an asshole, I was just trying to be clever" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtXkD1BC564 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtXkD1BC564
actuallyalys 8y ago
Examples would help, but there's a clue in what he suggests as an alternative: "be polite and to the point". I think any type of cleverness that's indirect or could be perceived as impolite is the kind of cleverness he's talking about.
- JasonFruit 8y ago
  That's a very helpful perspective.
smallnamespace 8y ago
Well, I know it's definitely aimed at me. Sometimes I make jokes that go over the recipient's head (almost never directed at them); it makes them feel a bit dumb and either makes me look like a jerk or poor at communicating. I've tried to pay a lot more to context (what do I know about the person whom I'm talking to? what are their interests? what do they probably know about, and what not?), but it's still a work in progress. In the meantime, most of my jokes, puns, or wit will get cut.
bunderbunder 8y ago
It probably has something to do with the on-going saga of his relationship with the "Sad Puppies" crowd, though I think the Sad Puppies didn't actually form until years later. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if it were an oblique response to something someone tweeted at him. Getting more specific than that would probably require doing some Twitter archaeology, and I doubt that would be a particularly edifying enterprise. As entertainment options go, watching Scalzi get into minor spats with people who don't like leftist SF/F figures is right up there with reading YouTube comments.

ouid 8y ago

The author of this should find some way of dealing with his social anxiety.

jonhendry18 8y ago
I would guess it's about some aspiring author type who tried to impress Scalzi (a published author) in email and failed badly. It probably wasn't bad enough for Scalzi to want to embarrass the emailer by identifying them by name. This may not be the first time Scalzi received an email like this from someone, leading to the post as a kind of "public service message".
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
I take it you're not familiar with John Scalzi at all? He's an enormously forthright speaker. Perhaps you should find some way of dealing with your passive-aggressive tendencies?

andrepd 8y ago

Maybe I'm not... clever enough, but I cannot understand what the hell this guy is on about.

shawn 8y ago

Most of the comments seem to divide into two categories: those who have experienced this failure mode, and those attacking the author. As someone who has learned not to do this, here is what the author is saying. You subconsciously care about yourself more than the person you're talking to. When you want something from them, that's a bad idea. Those two sentences, if internalized, will cure you of trying to be clever. There's no room for clever when you have to be effective. At least, not manufactured clever.

sbjs 8y ago
You can still care about yourself more than the person but at the same time want something from them badly enough that you'll reverse this when you interact with them. It's called sucking up.
- sbjs 8y ago
  To clarify, I don't recommend it. Just giving food for thought.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  You think attempting to be polite when you're asking for a favor is "sucking up"?
franciscop 8y ago
But the implicit act of comunication is because you want something regarding the person you are talking with, right? Even if it's offering something, you _still_ want them to accept it. I learned a lot about this through StackOverflow questions. Yes, you want your answer. But you have to be willing to first try very hard by yourself, and to make sure you make it easy for people to answer it to understand you quick and easy.

samirez 8y ago

Recruiters would do well to read this. Have noticed an uptick in 'clever' outreaches lately. While they don't necessarily cross over into 'asshole', then definitely make me want to avoid a potentially cringey conversation.

jcahill 8y ago

semicolons are irony punctuation in prose. https://www.google.com/search?q=too+clever+by+half https://www.google.com/search?q=too+clever+by+half

m0llusk 8y ago

This fails to differentiate between intention, action, and interpretation. Wanting to stand out from the crowd, being clever, having a clever idea, and being an asshole are all judgements. What is the intention? What actions might address that intention? Privacy in communication is emphasized, but general points like this apply to all communication. References might be missed, so be careful with them especially the first time. What seems especially odd is that this post is an apparently unintentional example of the failure mode being discussed. Instead of directly talking about the risk of misunderstanding and how to limit that using simplification a bunch of colorful but ultimately distracting discourse keeps the focus on judgements about character and intent and assembling the clever asshole strawman.

londons_explore 8y ago

This article would be strengthened by a good set of examples.