6 ms·

Vanadium redox battery

35 points by fpoling 8y ago

jordz 8y ago
Vanadium batteries are very promising, however the energy density is the main issue here. Lead Acid batteries have a better ratio however obviously lead is toxic and it requires more than just lead. The fact that Vanadium batteries capacity is limited to just the size of the tank (slight oversimplification) is a positive for sure, their life span is also a positive factor. It also, while classed as toxic, is not classed a seriously hazardous.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  Salt water battery looks better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_battery
  - isoprophlex 8y ago
    That article is very low on actual electrochemical details. Here's one of the research papers on high performance salt water electrolyte batteries: http://sci-hub.tw/10.1126/science.aab1595 http://sci-hub.tw/10.1126/science.aab1595
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Like most redox/flow batteries they have a very big shortcoming and that is a very limited operating temp range for vanadium it’s 10-40c that means they’ll need environmental controls installed in almost every case.
  - selimthegrim 8y ago
    Li-ion generally needs HVAC too, and if you only need HVAC at 104F that's not too substantial a cost for southern (US) solar available regions.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Modern Li-Ion can operate at 0-45c in "fast charge" and there are even higher ranges being developed, there is a huge difference between 10-40 and 0-45 as far as suitable environmental locations go. Li-Ion can be charged at 0c or even below in some cases, with Vanadium Redox you get crystallization at 10c and the battery stops working it's not like Li-Ion where you lose some charge and you need to charge at a lower current and the charging it self will bring back the inner temp of your battery pack to fast/full charge levels.
  - cesarb 8y ago
    Given that these batteries would be used mostly in stationary applications, where space is less of a problem, the only question is how much extra power would the heaters and/or coolers need, and how much waste heat the charge/discharge releases (some of the waste heat could be used instead of the heaters, but would put more demand on the cooling system). Unless the amount of waste heat is too high, it doesn't sound like too much of problem to me; given proper insulation, most of the heat would come from the battery itself.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Cooling/heating Li-Ion batteries which have a wider range and are mechanically easier to cool than liquid Redox batteries is a big challenge, this one is a much bigger one.
- infogulch 8y ago
  For grid storage, density is entirely a non-issue.
kumarvvr 8y ago
These are fascinating batteries. Yes, their energy density is less than Li-Ion but, are most suitable to cater to intermittent power sources such as Solar and Wind. Hopefully, with enough space, a solar or wind generating station can be turned into a base load station. I guess that's where data analysis and computing will help. An intelligent power controller / charger could theoretically turn a single wind turbine into a miniature base load plant, i.e, a power source that supplies constant power, buffered by these flow batteries. I am hopeful that with better materials, not only with the flow batteries be eco-friendly, but also more energy dense. Also, in the future, such batteries hopefully could make an individual house completely grid independent.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  There's no real compelling reason to locate the batteries near the generator.
  - kumarvvr 8y ago
    For maintenance free batteries, coupled with an intermittent power source and an intelligent controller, the whole system coukd act as a constant power source.
    - isoprophlex 8y ago
      I think the point is, from the perspective of electricity grid maintenance, it doesn't matter much (given sufficient transport capabilities) if you stuff all the wind turbines on one end, and all the redox batteries on the other end of the country. No need to integrate the production and storage solutionss at all.
      - zokier 8y ago
        > given sufficient transport capabilities I feel like that is fairly big thing here. In practice power grid capacity is very much finite.
walrus01 8y ago
One company attempting to make commercial products: https://www.google.com/search?q=storen+technologies&oq=storen+tech&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j69i60l3j0l2.4896j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=storen+technologies&oq=store... On a bigger Grid scale: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UniEnergy_Technologies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UniEnergy_Technologies
edward 8y ago
Vanadium is the latest beneficiary of the battery craze A metal used to harden steel could also help prevent global warming https://www.economist.com/business/2018/07/21/vanadium-is-the-latest-beneficiary-of-the-battery-craze https://www.economist.com/business/2018/07/21/vanadium-is-th...
jaclaz 8y ago
The temperature limits issues can be (in most cases) solved by simply putting the batteries underground. If you can go deep enough, temperature is almost constant, check, as an example, Fig. 4 here: https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatu...
syntaxing 8y ago
I'm super confused...a lot of people say that this battery works only between 10-40C but I remember a couple weeks ago and there was a Stanford article on how they made a mebrane operate at room and high (200C). Is the 10-40C a limit on Vanadium or the membrane used?! If it is the membrane, does that mean the article is click bait?!

35 points by fpoling 8y ago

Vanadium batteries are very promising, however the energy density is the main issue here. Lead Acid batteries have a better ratio however obviously lead is toxic and it requires more than just lead. The fact that Vanadium batteries capacity is limited to just the size of the tank (slight oversimplification) is a positive for sure, their life span is also a positive factor. It also, while classed as toxic, is not classed a seriously hazardous.

v_lisivka 8y ago
Salt water battery looks better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_battery
- isoprophlex 8y ago
  That article is very low on actual electrochemical details. Here's one of the research papers on high performance salt water electrolyte batteries: http://sci-hub.tw/10.1126/science.aab1595 http://sci-hub.tw/10.1126/science.aab1595
dogma1138 8y ago
Like most redox/flow batteries they have a very big shortcoming and that is a very limited operating temp range for vanadium it’s 10-40c that means they’ll need environmental controls installed in almost every case.
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  Li-ion generally needs HVAC too, and if you only need HVAC at 104F that's not too substantial a cost for southern (US) solar available regions.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Modern Li-Ion can operate at 0-45c in "fast charge" and there are even higher ranges being developed, there is a huge difference between 10-40 and 0-45 as far as suitable environmental locations go. Li-Ion can be charged at 0c or even below in some cases, with Vanadium Redox you get crystallization at 10c and the battery stops working it's not like Li-Ion where you lose some charge and you need to charge at a lower current and the charging it self will bring back the inner temp of your battery pack to fast/full charge levels.
- cesarb 8y ago
  Given that these batteries would be used mostly in stationary applications, where space is less of a problem, the only question is how much extra power would the heaters and/or coolers need, and how much waste heat the charge/discharge releases (some of the waste heat could be used instead of the heaters, but would put more demand on the cooling system). Unless the amount of waste heat is too high, it doesn't sound like too much of problem to me; given proper insulation, most of the heat would come from the battery itself.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Cooling/heating Li-Ion batteries which have a wider range and are mechanically easier to cool than liquid Redox batteries is a big challenge, this one is a much bigger one.
infogulch 8y ago
For grid storage, density is entirely a non-issue.

kumarvvr 8y ago

These are fascinating batteries. Yes, their energy density is less than Li-Ion but, are most suitable to cater to intermittent power sources such as Solar and Wind. Hopefully, with enough space, a solar or wind generating station can be turned into a base load station. I guess that's where data analysis and computing will help. An intelligent power controller / charger could theoretically turn a single wind turbine into a miniature base load plant, i.e, a power source that supplies constant power, buffered by these flow batteries. I am hopeful that with better materials, not only with the flow batteries be eco-friendly, but also more energy dense. Also, in the future, such batteries hopefully could make an individual house completely grid independent.

maxerickson 8y ago
There's no real compelling reason to locate the batteries near the generator.
- kumarvvr 8y ago
  For maintenance free batteries, coupled with an intermittent power source and an intelligent controller, the whole system coukd act as a constant power source.
  - isoprophlex 8y ago
    I think the point is, from the perspective of electricity grid maintenance, it doesn't matter much (given sufficient transport capabilities) if you stuff all the wind turbines on one end, and all the redox batteries on the other end of the country. No need to integrate the production and storage solutionss at all.
    - zokier 8y ago
      > given sufficient transport capabilities I feel like that is fairly big thing here. In practice power grid capacity is very much finite.

walrus01 8y ago

One company attempting to make commercial products: https://www.google.com/search?q=storen+technologies&oq=storen+tech&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j69i60l3j0l2.4896j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=storen+technologies&oq=store... On a bigger Grid scale: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UniEnergy_Technologies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UniEnergy_Technologies

edward 8y ago

Vanadium is the latest beneficiary of the battery craze A metal used to harden steel could also help prevent global warming https://www.economist.com/business/2018/07/21/vanadium-is-the-latest-beneficiary-of-the-battery-craze https://www.economist.com/business/2018/07/21/vanadium-is-th...

jaclaz 8y ago

The temperature limits issues can be (in most cases) solved by simply putting the batteries underground. If you can go deep enough, temperature is almost constant, check, as an example, Fig. 4 here: https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatu...

syntaxing 8y ago

I'm super confused...a lot of people say that this battery works only between 10-40C but I remember a couple weeks ago and there was a Stanford article on how they made a mebrane operate at room and high (200C). Is the 10-40C a limit on Vanadium or the membrane used?! If it is the membrane, does that mean the article is click bait?!