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I've recently moved to the US from the UK, and I've had several Americans mention that they would like to visit Europe but are worried about the danger of terro

I've recently moved to the US from the UK, and I've had several Americans mention that they would like to visit Europe but are worried about the danger of terrorism. I tried to explain that any increased risk of terrorism is massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident, but that wasn't terribly successful.

blattimwind 8y ago
If you're visting Kabul you've got a legit reason to be afraid of terrorism — if you're afraid of terrorism in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg or Hanover you're simply a propaganda victim.
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident Death by car is kind of the concern.... > simply a propaganda victim Last 3 years: [1] * Car attack by the Islamic State in Barcelona (24 killed, 152 injured) * Car + knife attack by the Islamic State in London (11 killed, 48 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Manchester (23 killed, 250 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Berlin (12 killed, 56 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Nice, France (87 killed, 434 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Brussels (35 killed, 340 injured) * Shooting and bombing by the Islamic State in Paris (137 killed, 368 injured) Yes, you're right....a dozen here and hundred there means nothing in the overall picture of Western Europe. But it doesn't exactly take a propaganda machine for that to have a significant physiological effect. Especially when looking at the details: these weren't back-alley muggings, bad-part-of-town shootings, or gang turf struggles. They were in tourist-friendly, public places in broad daylight, with substantial law enforcement presence. (Four unarmed police officers died trying to stop the stabbers on London Bridge.) The story of the few seems to naturally have a large effect on the human mind. HN top 20 currently has a story of a mishandled justice for a single person https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 See the comments for extrapolation onto the judgment of the US justice system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_...
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Being afraid there is as reasonable as being afraid in every American skyscraper because of 9/11. The latter might actually be, purely from a casualty statistics perspective, more reasonable. Also not all countries in Europe are the same. E.g. France, UK and Belgium have more issues in general with islamists and thus more terrorism than e.g. Germany, Italy, Poland, ... For example, in Germany the only significant islamic terrorist attack remains the Breitscheidplatz attack with 12 dead.
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      There's a strong recency component. Indeed, following 9/11: * Delta, Northwest, United, and US Airways filed for bankruptcy * New York City lost $320m in tourism revenue * New York City jobs were cut by 450,000 and wages by $2.8b over three months * Even unrelated tourism was affected.. I lived near Orlando, FL, and the entertainment parks were near ghost towns for weeks. Assuming Europe stops the regular cadence of large Islamist terror attacks, this fades from memory and in a decade everything is back to normal in the public mind.
  - econochoice 8y ago
    In the US, there's a legitimate propaganda effort to paint Europe as a den of "Islamic terrorism". You'll see these talking points echoed online, in memes, by politicians and on TV. You can watch, in hilarity, as propagandist YouTubers go into European "no-go zones"[1], where they're met with casual street traffic, children playing and, often times, absolute peace and tranquility[2]. These "no-go zones" are supposed dens of radical extremists that assault and kill anyone who is not from the Middle East or Muslim. Or, you can read the hundreds, if not thousands, of attempts to paint Sweden as a den of sexual assault against natives by scary foreigners. They completely ignore that the rise in sexual assault numbers have to do with recent recategorizing of what are legally recognized as sex crimes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area, do a quick Ctrl-F for Fox, CNN, etc and you'll see how widespread of an effort is being taken to paint Europe as dangerous to exist in if you are light-skinned or not Muslim. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pochreLwrQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pochreLwrQs [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/20/cnn-too-trafficked-in-no-go-zone-chatter https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/..., an op-ed piece complaining about the fact that CNN was quick to parrot the "no-go zone" talking point without first checking their facts

blattimwind 8y ago

If you're visting Kabul you've got a legit reason to be afraid of terrorism — if you're afraid of terrorism in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg or Hanover you're simply a propaganda victim.

paulddraper 8y ago
> massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident Death by car is kind of the concern.... > simply a propaganda victim Last 3 years: [1] * Car attack by the Islamic State in Barcelona (24 killed, 152 injured) * Car + knife attack by the Islamic State in London (11 killed, 48 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Manchester (23 killed, 250 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Berlin (12 killed, 56 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Nice, France (87 killed, 434 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Brussels (35 killed, 340 injured) * Shooting and bombing by the Islamic State in Paris (137 killed, 368 injured) Yes, you're right....a dozen here and hundred there means nothing in the overall picture of Western Europe. But it doesn't exactly take a propaganda machine for that to have a significant physiological effect. Especially when looking at the details: these weren't back-alley muggings, bad-part-of-town shootings, or gang turf struggles. They were in tourist-friendly, public places in broad daylight, with substantial law enforcement presence. (Four unarmed police officers died trying to stop the stabbers on London Bridge.) The story of the few seems to naturally have a large effect on the human mind. HN top 20 currently has a story of a mishandled justice for a single person https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 See the comments for extrapolation onto the judgment of the US justice system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_...
- blattimwind 8y ago
  Being afraid there is as reasonable as being afraid in every American skyscraper because of 9/11. The latter might actually be, purely from a casualty statistics perspective, more reasonable. Also not all countries in Europe are the same. E.g. France, UK and Belgium have more issues in general with islamists and thus more terrorism than e.g. Germany, Italy, Poland, ... For example, in Germany the only significant islamic terrorist attack remains the Breitscheidplatz attack with 12 dead.
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    There's a strong recency component. Indeed, following 9/11: * Delta, Northwest, United, and US Airways filed for bankruptcy * New York City lost $320m in tourism revenue * New York City jobs were cut by 450,000 and wages by $2.8b over three months * Even unrelated tourism was affected.. I lived near Orlando, FL, and the entertainment parks were near ghost towns for weeks. Assuming Europe stops the regular cadence of large Islamist terror attacks, this fades from memory and in a decade everything is back to normal in the public mind.
- econochoice 8y ago
  In the US, there's a legitimate propaganda effort to paint Europe as a den of "Islamic terrorism". You'll see these talking points echoed online, in memes, by politicians and on TV. You can watch, in hilarity, as propagandist YouTubers go into European "no-go zones"[1], where they're met with casual street traffic, children playing and, often times, absolute peace and tranquility[2]. These "no-go zones" are supposed dens of radical extremists that assault and kill anyone who is not from the Middle East or Muslim. Or, you can read the hundreds, if not thousands, of attempts to paint Sweden as a den of sexual assault against natives by scary foreigners. They completely ignore that the rise in sexual assault numbers have to do with recent recategorizing of what are legally recognized as sex crimes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area, do a quick Ctrl-F for Fox, CNN, etc and you'll see how widespread of an effort is being taken to paint Europe as dangerous to exist in if you are light-skinned or not Muslim. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pochreLwrQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pochreLwrQs [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/20/cnn-too-trafficked-in-no-go-zone-chatter https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/..., an op-ed piece complaining about the fact that CNN was quick to parrot the "no-go zone" talking point without first checking their facts