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> By the way, this may be even more true for men, who are routinely viewed with a skeptical eye when it comes to parenting decisions. Strongly disagree. > The

by zrail 8y ago

> By the way, this may be even more true for men, who are routinely viewed with a skeptical eye when it comes to parenting decisions. Strongly disagree. > The glee at which our current culture laughs at the perceived incompetence of men with regards to parenting has taught us all to expect fathers to be completely boneheaded at all times. Exactly. I, as a father, can get away with all kinds of things because according to society I don't know any better, whereas my wife, as a mother, is expected to be perfect all the time and when she does something that doesn't measure up to someone's unvoiced, unwarranted expectations she's harshly judged for it. This is true not just for mothers but for all women in the US, all the time, basically from birth, doubly so if they're POC.

ACow_Adonis 8y ago
POC?
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Persons of color. In USA, a lot of things that annoy white people are worse for people who aren't white. E.g. dealing with police, CPS, the courts, etc.
rwcarlsen 8y ago
I think there are two things going on here - "a child being treated in X manner" and "how we view parent X (mother or father) treating their child". Fathers culturally often get the dad pass for why something happened while society still frowns on the thing that happened to the kids the same. I (as a father) am just as afraid of getting in trouble for leaving my kids in the car for a few minutes as my wife - because the legal issues of how society responds to that happening to kids even if there is less cultural mud-slinging at me because I am male. All this to say that I am much more interested in the direct topic of this article - which is the fear I and my wife operate under of our getting in trouble for not raising our kids "right" - rather than have the discussion get derailed into a gender rabbit hole.
AnthonyMouse 8y ago
> I, as a father, can get away with all kinds of things because according to society I don't know any better, whereas my wife, as a mother, is expected to be perfect all the time and when she does something that doesn't measure up to someone's unvoiced, unwarranted expectations she's harshly judged for it. The problem is the other side to this coin, which is that because males are presumed to be incompetent, their interactions with children are restricted ahead of time. Children aren't allowed to be alone with an adult male because the presumption is that he'll allow them to solo pilot a homemade single-passenger rocket ship with no safety equipment, if not literally rape and murder them. And then, for example, little girls can't learn about tech because qualified adult women to teach them are scarce and they're not allowed to be unsupervised around adult men.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  ...little girls can't learn about tech because qualified adult women to teach them are scarce and they're not allowed to be unsupervised around adult men. This may change with the rise of ubiquitous surveillance. In fact if I'm alone with a teenage girl to whom I'm unrelated for more than a few minutes, I'll be much more comfortable if there is a recording. This may also change as deepfakes become more common...
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    That's assuming the behavior is rooted in rationality, when the whole issue is that it isn't. Joe Random was never actually going to hurt your kids.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Well sure, but it isn't just parents preventing the tutoring described above. What man wants to open himself up to that craziness?
      - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
        But that's just the same thing. We don't even need to debate what percentage of allegations are false. The percentage of men accused of sexual misconduct, falsely or otherwise, is low. It's like school shootings. You hear about them because they're outrageous, not because you're ever likely to experience one. And if someone is willing to lie about what happened when you were alone together, what stops them lying about the fact that you were alone together to begin with?
b22GcijhI9 8y ago
You are somehow spinning a negative thing, men being perceived as incompetent in parenting, in to a positive thing, that you can make mistakes, and that women are oppressed because they aren't allowed to make mistakes because they are perceived as competent parents. It is objectively a bad thing if men are perceived as incompetent parents, because they are men, let alone from any other stereotypes.
- watwut 8y ago
  It this context, it is an advantage for men through. And maybe also for children, because a lot of what triggers "omg irresponsible" in women is actually fine. The very same prejudice hurts men in different contexts - when good and cool things they do with children are attributed to their wifes, when they want more time with children, when they don't get chance to learn how to deal with young relatives because everyone keeps them away. When they are shamed for wanting to work with young children or presumed incompetent.

by zrail 8y ago

ACow_Adonis 8y ago

POC?

jessaustin 8y ago
Persons of color. In USA, a lot of things that annoy white people are worse for people who aren't white. E.g. dealing with police, CPS, the courts, etc.

rwcarlsen 8y ago

I think there are two things going on here - "a child being treated in X manner" and "how we view parent X (mother or father) treating their child". Fathers culturally often get the dad pass for why something happened while society still frowns on the thing that happened to the kids the same. I (as a father) am just as afraid of getting in trouble for leaving my kids in the car for a few minutes as my wife - because the legal issues of how society responds to that happening to kids even if there is less cultural mud-slinging at me because I am male. All this to say that I am much more interested in the direct topic of this article - which is the fear I and my wife operate under of our getting in trouble for not raising our kids "right" - rather than have the discussion get derailed into a gender rabbit hole.

AnthonyMouse 8y ago

> I, as a father, can get away with all kinds of things because according to society I don't know any better, whereas my wife, as a mother, is expected to be perfect all the time and when she does something that doesn't measure up to someone's unvoiced, unwarranted expectations she's harshly judged for it. The problem is the other side to this coin, which is that because males are presumed to be incompetent, their interactions with children are restricted ahead of time. Children aren't allowed to be alone with an adult male because the presumption is that he'll allow them to solo pilot a homemade single-passenger rocket ship with no safety equipment, if not literally rape and murder them. And then, for example, little girls can't learn about tech because qualified adult women to teach them are scarce and they're not allowed to be unsupervised around adult men.

jessaustin 8y ago
...little girls can't learn about tech because qualified adult women to teach them are scarce and they're not allowed to be unsupervised around adult men. This may change with the rise of ubiquitous surveillance. In fact if I'm alone with a teenage girl to whom I'm unrelated for more than a few minutes, I'll be much more comfortable if there is a recording. This may also change as deepfakes become more common...
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  That's assuming the behavior is rooted in rationality, when the whole issue is that it isn't. Joe Random was never actually going to hurt your kids.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Well sure, but it isn't just parents preventing the tutoring described above. What man wants to open himself up to that craziness?
    - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
      But that's just the same thing. We don't even need to debate what percentage of allegations are false. The percentage of men accused of sexual misconduct, falsely or otherwise, is low. It's like school shootings. You hear about them because they're outrageous, not because you're ever likely to experience one. And if someone is willing to lie about what happened when you were alone together, what stops them lying about the fact that you were alone together to begin with?

b22GcijhI9 8y ago

You are somehow spinning a negative thing, men being perceived as incompetent in parenting, in to a positive thing, that you can make mistakes, and that women are oppressed because they aren't allowed to make mistakes because they are perceived as competent parents. It is objectively a bad thing if men are perceived as incompetent parents, because they are men, let alone from any other stereotypes.

watwut 8y ago
It this context, it is an advantage for men through. And maybe also for children, because a lot of what triggers "omg irresponsible" in women is actually fine. The very same prejudice hurts men in different contexts - when good and cool things they do with children are attributed to their wifes, when they want more time with children, when they don't get chance to learn how to deal with young relatives because everyone keeps them away. When they are shamed for wanting to work with young children or presumed incompetent.