4 ms·

This is exactly why I think it's absolute lunacy to have children in the US these days, and I actively advocate against it. If you want to have kids, move to a

by magduf 8y ago

This is exactly why I think it's absolute lunacy to have children in the US these days, and I actively advocate against it. If you want to have kids, move to a country where you aren't charged with a crime for leaving your kids alone under the age of 12. In Japan, kids are basically forced to walk themselves to school at the age of 7 or so, without their parents. Here, that would cause the parents to be thrown in jail. Raising kids in this country is dangerous to your personal safety if you want to avoid jail time. Don't do it. This article isn't exaggerating. From the end of the article: "Instead I worry about all the ways our country seems to be at war with children, even as we insist our greatest responsibility is to protect them." Exactly: we are at war with children, and parents too. The rational choice is to avoid the situation altogether. If you're reading on this board, you're probably affluent enough to head to greener pastures if/when you decide to have kids.

vowelless 8y ago
> if you want to have kids, move to a country where you aren't charged with a crime for leaving your kids alone under the age of 12. Or, you know, perhaps try to change the laws?
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Changing the laws won't change the culture. The article clearly stated that she didn't do anything illegal, yet still wound up having to do 100 hours of community service just for getting 'caught' not-breaking the law. As they say, you can beat the charge, but you can't beat the ride.
- magduf 8y ago
  Good luck with that. That can take decades. How long have people been trying to change the War on Drugs laws? By the time you get that done, you'll be too old to have kids. Changing the laws means changing the culture, and these laws are a byproduct of our culture of fear. You're not going to change that any time soon.
- shadofx 8y ago
  The laws are put in place as a measured response to real threats. You need to remove those threats first before the laws can be changed.
  - jshevek 8y ago
    Generally speaking, there is nothing 'measured' about the way the democratic process is influenced by widespread irrationality and emotionalism. I see no reason to believe that these laws are a result of a measured response. I see reason to believe the opposite.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    I want to believe this is a blunt sort of satire, but I can't quite get there...
mmsimanga 8y ago
To add another data point. Middle-class South Africa is pretty much the same. The laws might not be as strict but there is a lot of peer/social pressure. You should see the traffic jam around schools including high schools where kids as old as 17 are dropped off.
xamuel 8y ago
Statistically, these "mother wrongly arrested" stories are about as rare as genuine child abductions. Avoiding parenthood because of them is as irrational as reporting a woman for leaving her child in the car for five minutes. (Not that that's an excuse for the abominable actions of law enforcement in the story. Shame on the police, prosecutors, and judges involved.)
- magduf 8y ago
  The problem is it's not that rare. The police, prosecutors, and judges involved here are still there, and they're going to consistently act this way towards parents under their jurisdiction. The only rational way to deal with this is to leave that place. And many places in the US are just like this now; sure, you could move to rural Montana and maybe avoid this, but good luck getting a decent job there.
- convivialdingo 8y ago
  I used to think the same thing, but having raised kids I have told my own two adult children to raise their kids abroad. The Stasi-like laws are real. Anonymous tips, school and medical required reporting laws, assumed guilt and state harassment are the status quo. I’ve known too many families that get caught up by CPS. In poor communities the harassment is disturbing. Parenting while poor is apparently against the law. Few parents know their limited rights - so they usually talk with CPS before consulting an attorney and get caught up in the system for years when they likely did nothing wrong. Every CPS encounter is for the primary purpose of gathering evidence against the accused. Those conversations are twisted into the most negative light possible, editorialized and presented as evidence in court. I’ve read the cases. There are 2.3M CPS cases a year(2014), and there are 3-4M children born each year. These statistics alone show a marked trend of state harassment against families. I appreciate and understand that CPS has a role in protecting children. I just think the system is broken, wrong and often unjust. CPS is likely causing more harm than good for most children, even if they help a small minority.
war1025 8y ago
One of the main reasons we moved to the community we did is that I was driving by a house on what happened to be the last day of school and saw multiple elementary school aged kids walking home alone or in groups. When I was little I would take the shuttle bus after school to the school for slightly older kids (4th and 5th grade), and from there a pack of probably 5 of us would walk to our baby sitter's half a mile away (just checked on maps). Happy to know there are at least some parts of the US that haven't given up on children being capable little humans.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  I also caught the school bus and sometimes walked home if I missed the bus. The driver a kindly but no-nonsense type of man used to kick you off the bus if you were being naughty (imagine doing that today). That meant you had a long walk home but taught one not to throw things on a bus :-). I digress, in South Africa catching the bus to school is closely related to financial standing. The poorer folk who do not own cars really have no choice but to put their children on the bus. There is no judgement and all the kids catch the bus. The middle and upper-class folk drop their kids off. I can't help but wonder if the kids catching the bus will grow up to be more independent and more balanced. Not only do they catch the bus, often their parents cannot afford aftercare so they begin to cook and look after themselves at scandalously young ages. I use the word scandalous sarcastically because in my day there was no aftercare and we could make ourselves a sandwich from a pretty young age.

by magduf 8y ago

vowelless 8y ago

> if you want to have kids, move to a country where you aren't charged with a crime for leaving your kids alone under the age of 12. Or, you know, perhaps try to change the laws?

vinceguidry 8y ago
Changing the laws won't change the culture. The article clearly stated that she didn't do anything illegal, yet still wound up having to do 100 hours of community service just for getting 'caught' not-breaking the law. As they say, you can beat the charge, but you can't beat the ride.
magduf 8y ago
Good luck with that. That can take decades. How long have people been trying to change the War on Drugs laws? By the time you get that done, you'll be too old to have kids. Changing the laws means changing the culture, and these laws are a byproduct of our culture of fear. You're not going to change that any time soon.
shadofx 8y ago
The laws are put in place as a measured response to real threats. You need to remove those threats first before the laws can be changed.
- jshevek 8y ago
  Generally speaking, there is nothing 'measured' about the way the democratic process is influenced by widespread irrationality and emotionalism. I see no reason to believe that these laws are a result of a measured response. I see reason to believe the opposite.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  I want to believe this is a blunt sort of satire, but I can't quite get there...

mmsimanga 8y ago

To add another data point. Middle-class South Africa is pretty much the same. The laws might not be as strict but there is a lot of peer/social pressure. You should see the traffic jam around schools including high schools where kids as old as 17 are dropped off.

xamuel 8y ago

Statistically, these "mother wrongly arrested" stories are about as rare as genuine child abductions. Avoiding parenthood because of them is as irrational as reporting a woman for leaving her child in the car for five minutes. (Not that that's an excuse for the abominable actions of law enforcement in the story. Shame on the police, prosecutors, and judges involved.)

magduf 8y ago
The problem is it's not that rare. The police, prosecutors, and judges involved here are still there, and they're going to consistently act this way towards parents under their jurisdiction. The only rational way to deal with this is to leave that place. And many places in the US are just like this now; sure, you could move to rural Montana and maybe avoid this, but good luck getting a decent job there.
convivialdingo 8y ago
I used to think the same thing, but having raised kids I have told my own two adult children to raise their kids abroad. The Stasi-like laws are real. Anonymous tips, school and medical required reporting laws, assumed guilt and state harassment are the status quo. I’ve known too many families that get caught up by CPS. In poor communities the harassment is disturbing. Parenting while poor is apparently against the law. Few parents know their limited rights - so they usually talk with CPS before consulting an attorney and get caught up in the system for years when they likely did nothing wrong. Every CPS encounter is for the primary purpose of gathering evidence against the accused. Those conversations are twisted into the most negative light possible, editorialized and presented as evidence in court. I’ve read the cases. There are 2.3M CPS cases a year(2014), and there are 3-4M children born each year. These statistics alone show a marked trend of state harassment against families. I appreciate and understand that CPS has a role in protecting children. I just think the system is broken, wrong and often unjust. CPS is likely causing more harm than good for most children, even if they help a small minority.

war1025 8y ago

One of the main reasons we moved to the community we did is that I was driving by a house on what happened to be the last day of school and saw multiple elementary school aged kids walking home alone or in groups. When I was little I would take the shuttle bus after school to the school for slightly older kids (4th and 5th grade), and from there a pack of probably 5 of us would walk to our baby sitter's half a mile away (just checked on maps). Happy to know there are at least some parts of the US that haven't given up on children being capable little humans.

mmsimanga 8y ago
I also caught the school bus and sometimes walked home if I missed the bus. The driver a kindly but no-nonsense type of man used to kick you off the bus if you were being naughty (imagine doing that today). That meant you had a long walk home but taught one not to throw things on a bus :-). I digress, in South Africa catching the bus to school is closely related to financial standing. The poorer folk who do not own cars really have no choice but to put their children on the bus. There is no judgement and all the kids catch the bus. The middle and upper-class folk drop their kids off. I can't help but wonder if the kids catching the bus will grow up to be more independent and more balanced. Not only do they catch the bus, often their parents cannot afford aftercare so they begin to cook and look after themselves at scandalously young ages. I use the word scandalous sarcastically because in my day there was no aftercare and we could make ourselves a sandwich from a pretty young age.