8 ms·

The Untold Story of Otto Warmbier, American Hostage

49 points by gadders 8y ago

enticeing 8y ago
I had always thought that he was beaten, I guess because I'd never really looked into it. From the article it seems like it's most likely that he either attempted suicide or lost blood flow to his brain in some other way, and then was discovered by his guards unconscious and taken to the hospital in North Korea.
- csmckay 8y ago
  Yeah the article mentioned all the North Korean medical paper work showed Otto went into the Hospital already in a coma the day after he was sentenced. Furthermore, the article suggest he was well taken care of the entire time while in his coma (i.e., no bedsores, healthy coma weight, healthy skin etc.). And it said the original brain scans showed equal distribution of brain damage on both signs (i.e., he died from lack of oxygen rather than blows to the head). I don't think I'd be strong enough to stay in it after being sentenced to a lifetime of jail in a North Korean prison camp. The "beatings" and "torture" talk all seems to be false propaganda that wasn't backed up by any evidence with several officials noting no signs of beatings or torture, which is disgusting.
  - oculusthrift 8y ago
    and north korea has never been known to lie, so must be true
    - tptacek 8y ago
      For most of the detail cited in the comment you replied to, we're not relying on North Korea's representations, so your reply is largely nonresponsive.
  - ForRealsies 8y ago
    Yeah he wasn't tortured. He just put himself into a coma in a failed suicide self-strangulation attempt. You know, to escape that whole lifetime of forced labor bit. Muuuuuch better
- debt 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure sentencing a man to 15 years in prison for stealing a poster is torture enough. I can always spot the pro-Trumpers as they'll always make defensible anything related to his decisions; in this case, "hey Kim's not a bad guy because look Otto wasn't beaten by a murderous regime, he merely attempted suicide. So maybe it's not so bad we're getting friendly with Kim's regime."
  - SomeAmerican 8y ago
    This is a bizarre statement. It was Trump claiming that the boy had been tortured and beaten.
throwaway78568 8y ago
Based on the source, I went in to this article assuming it would somehow paint North Korea in a more forgiving light, and attack the Trump administration. I was not wrong. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe Otto was physically beaten, maybe he wasn't. Maybe his incarceration conditions were "good" or maybe they weren't. Maybe he did try and commit suicide, maybe he didn't. The author certainly didn't have any more hard, objective facts than anyone before them. He just had an axe to grind.
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  > I was not wrong. When I saw the word "hostage" misused in the title, I had the exact same feeling.
- gadders 8y ago
  He did get some digs in against Trump, but I think he also praised his actions compared to the Obama administration and how personally he took the issue: >> When Trump learned of Otto's condition, he doubled down on the order for Yun to rush to Pyongyang and bring Otto home. The North Koreans were unilaterally informed that an American plane would soon land in Pyongyang and that United States diplomats and doctors would get off. “The president was very invested in bringing Otto home,” said a State Department official who was involved in the case and who was not authorized to speak on the record. “Listening to him deliberate on this, he sounded to me a lot more like a dad.
- badbug 8y ago
  The author interviewed several experts who claimed he wasn't beaten including people who examined him in person. Sorry this article is critical of your dear leader.
  - throwaway78568 8y ago
    He never explains the misaligned teeth. They seem to agree that the teeth are "healthy" but also that they were previously straight, and are no longer straight. A little odd, don't you think?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
SomeAmerican 8y ago
Nearing the summation, the author uncritically quotes a "senior-level American official." --"The North Koreans have never tortured a white guy physically. Never.” Earlier in the article, "The 82 American sailors captured on the Pueblo were beaten and starved for 11 months before finally being released." Conclusion: either none of the 82 American sailors were white guys, or "beaten and starved for 11 months" doesn't constitute torture.
- vowelless 8y ago
  It's a men's fashion magazine. I don't expect high quality work on this topic from them. I just skim to get a salient point here and there.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    That's not how this works at all. GQ and Esquire run serious long-form journalism all the time. For that matter, Vanity Fair is Michael Lewis and William Langewiesche's home after leaving The Atlantic.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Just a few paragraphs earlier the author makes clear that he's talking about since the Pueblo; it's the lead sentence of the graf: Ever since the sailors of the U.S.S. Pueblo were beaten in 1968, there have been no clear-cut cases of North Korea physically torturing American prisoners.
- mthoms 8y ago
  This also made me think of John McCain and other POWs. I think this part of the article is poorly worded. The author likely meant since 1968 this hasn't occurred.
6CLfK93jQ8 8y ago
The author is claiming that the Trump administration "encouraged the narrative" that Otto Warmbier was beaten but it does not really explain why very precisely except to imply that Trump may have used Otto's parents to look better himself. There isn't any evidence he did this, it is just speculation by the author. I can't find any quote from the Trump administration saying this except for "intelligence reports" from before Otto's return that even officials state the reports about beatings were from third or fourth hand sources. Further, North Korea's official explanation of Otto's brain trauma, botulism and a sleeping pill reaction, are dubious medical claims and can therefore be rightly doubted. 6 days after Otto's return, a press conference was held from Otto's doctor about his condition and reports about torture could not be confirmed or denied except to state that North Korea's explanation was unlikely. This would make it very hard to perpetuate a narrative that Warmbier was, without a doubt, beaten. I think it is an extremely tedious point to suggest that Trump was deliberately misleading the public about Otto's treatment in order to make himself look better.
jl2718 8y ago
tl;dr: I’m like, way, smarter than the president, who is a big ugly stupid-head and everything he does is wrong. If you want to be taken seriously as a journalist, don’t tie the story back to your opinion on Trump. It was an interesting story until he reveals the political motivations behind it. Have the courage to present the facts and let people come to their own conclusions.
- mthoms 8y ago
  It seemed factual to me. In fact, the Trump administration are given a lot of credit for the eventual release. It's the spin factor thats being called into question.
  - jl2718 8y ago
    Well, it is factual up to a point, which is great, and then he starts speculating, which is okay, and then he turns it into some indictment of Trump for tweeting that he was tortured, and then another indictment for not attacking more on the same issue. This brings all the weak sources into question. But really the problem is that I don’t care about his politics. Not do I care about Trump. I care about the fact that an entire nation full of people is living in some kind of perverse socialist utopian hell, and this tragic case is but one glimpse into it. His name was Otto Warmbier. I will not forget.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      You won't forget what? The point of the article is that you don't know what happened to Warmbier, and if your only source of information about him was the media stories that ran prior to this article, what you might think you know about him is almost certainly false.
SomeAmerican 8y ago
The author dedicates a full section to a possible attempt at suicide. However, he doesn't even try to correlate that with the physical examinations. How does one go braindead in a suicide attempt while locked up, without leaving physical evidence of other injuries? Certainly, none of the other suicide attempts the author listed would qualify. Later in the article: "Upon learning that this article did not support claims that Otto was beaten, and included the theory that he may have attempted suicide—a possibility that the family, through their lawyer, dismissed categorically—the Warmbiers withdrew a statement that they had previously provided." The "theory" that he attempted suicide is definitely on shakier ground than the "theories" his injuries were intentionally inflicted on him by the North Koreans.
- tptacek 8y ago
  I think the implication that he tried to hang or strangle himself is pretty clear; it's consistent with his injury (symmetric brain damage consistent with oxygen starvation, no other external signs of injury). It is certainly possible that, rather than hanging or strangling himself, he was strangled by someone in the DPRK. The DPRK hasn't done that to any other US prisoner, but it's the DPRK, so who knows? The problem is that the narrative in the media doesn't have that uncertainty. Rather, it's reported (somewhat widely, though less so after the coroner's report) that there was evidence of physical abuse: scars on his legs, "rearranged" lower teeth, etc. It is worth adding that the article doesn't say Warmbier tried to kill himself; it just adds that to the stack of plausible causes. It is indeed a very plausible cause.
  - SomeAmerican 8y ago
    How can a person hang themselves without leaving bruises? Without ligature marks? Is he some kind of ninja?
    - tptacek 8y ago
      The incident occurred a full year before he was released to the US.

49 points by gadders 8y ago

I had always thought that he was beaten, I guess because I'd never really looked into it. From the article it seems like it's most likely that he either attempted suicide or lost blood flow to his brain in some other way, and then was discovered by his guards unconscious and taken to the hospital in North Korea.

csmckay 8y ago
Yeah the article mentioned all the North Korean medical paper work showed Otto went into the Hospital already in a coma the day after he was sentenced. Furthermore, the article suggest he was well taken care of the entire time while in his coma (i.e., no bedsores, healthy coma weight, healthy skin etc.). And it said the original brain scans showed equal distribution of brain damage on both signs (i.e., he died from lack of oxygen rather than blows to the head). I don't think I'd be strong enough to stay in it after being sentenced to a lifetime of jail in a North Korean prison camp. The "beatings" and "torture" talk all seems to be false propaganda that wasn't backed up by any evidence with several officials noting no signs of beatings or torture, which is disgusting.
- oculusthrift 8y ago
  and north korea has never been known to lie, so must be true
  - tptacek 8y ago
    For most of the detail cited in the comment you replied to, we're not relying on North Korea's representations, so your reply is largely nonresponsive.
- ForRealsies 8y ago
  Yeah he wasn't tortured. He just put himself into a coma in a failed suicide self-strangulation attempt. You know, to escape that whole lifetime of forced labor bit. Muuuuuch better
debt 8y ago
I'm pretty sure sentencing a man to 15 years in prison for stealing a poster is torture enough. I can always spot the pro-Trumpers as they'll always make defensible anything related to his decisions; in this case, "hey Kim's not a bad guy because look Otto wasn't beaten by a murderous regime, he merely attempted suicide. So maybe it's not so bad we're getting friendly with Kim's regime."
- SomeAmerican 8y ago
  This is a bizarre statement. It was Trump claiming that the boy had been tortured and beaten.

throwaway78568 8y ago

Based on the source, I went in to this article assuming it would somehow paint North Korea in a more forgiving light, and attack the Trump administration. I was not wrong. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe Otto was physically beaten, maybe he wasn't. Maybe his incarceration conditions were "good" or maybe they weren't. Maybe he did try and commit suicide, maybe he didn't. The author certainly didn't have any more hard, objective facts than anyone before them. He just had an axe to grind.

stronglikedan 8y ago
> I was not wrong. When I saw the word "hostage" misused in the title, I had the exact same feeling.
gadders 8y ago
He did get some digs in against Trump, but I think he also praised his actions compared to the Obama administration and how personally he took the issue: >> When Trump learned of Otto's condition, he doubled down on the order for Yun to rush to Pyongyang and bring Otto home. The North Koreans were unilaterally informed that an American plane would soon land in Pyongyang and that United States diplomats and doctors would get off. “The president was very invested in bringing Otto home,” said a State Department official who was involved in the case and who was not authorized to speak on the record. “Listening to him deliberate on this, he sounded to me a lot more like a dad.
badbug 8y ago
The author interviewed several experts who claimed he wasn't beaten including people who examined him in person. Sorry this article is critical of your dear leader.
- throwaway78568 8y ago
  He never explains the misaligned teeth. They seem to agree that the teeth are "healthy" but also that they were previously straight, and are no longer straight. A little odd, don't you think?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

SomeAmerican 8y ago

Nearing the summation, the author uncritically quotes a "senior-level American official." --"The North Koreans have never tortured a white guy physically. Never.” Earlier in the article, "The 82 American sailors captured on the Pueblo were beaten and starved for 11 months before finally being released." Conclusion: either none of the 82 American sailors were white guys, or "beaten and starved for 11 months" doesn't constitute torture.

vowelless 8y ago
It's a men's fashion magazine. I don't expect high quality work on this topic from them. I just skim to get a salient point here and there.
- tptacek 8y ago
  That's not how this works at all. GQ and Esquire run serious long-form journalism all the time. For that matter, Vanity Fair is Michael Lewis and William Langewiesche's home after leaving The Atlantic.
tptacek 8y ago
Just a few paragraphs earlier the author makes clear that he's talking about since the Pueblo; it's the lead sentence of the graf: Ever since the sailors of the U.S.S. Pueblo were beaten in 1968, there have been no clear-cut cases of North Korea physically torturing American prisoners.
mthoms 8y ago
This also made me think of John McCain and other POWs. I think this part of the article is poorly worded. The author likely meant since 1968 this hasn't occurred.

6CLfK93jQ8 8y ago

The author is claiming that the Trump administration "encouraged the narrative" that Otto Warmbier was beaten but it does not really explain why very precisely except to imply that Trump may have used Otto's parents to look better himself. There isn't any evidence he did this, it is just speculation by the author. I can't find any quote from the Trump administration saying this except for "intelligence reports" from before Otto's return that even officials state the reports about beatings were from third or fourth hand sources. Further, North Korea's official explanation of Otto's brain trauma, botulism and a sleeping pill reaction, are dubious medical claims and can therefore be rightly doubted. 6 days after Otto's return, a press conference was held from Otto's doctor about his condition and reports about torture could not be confirmed or denied except to state that North Korea's explanation was unlikely. This would make it very hard to perpetuate a narrative that Warmbier was, without a doubt, beaten. I think it is an extremely tedious point to suggest that Trump was deliberately misleading the public about Otto's treatment in order to make himself look better.

jl2718 8y ago

tl;dr: I’m like, way, smarter than the president, who is a big ugly stupid-head and everything he does is wrong. If you want to be taken seriously as a journalist, don’t tie the story back to your opinion on Trump. It was an interesting story until he reveals the political motivations behind it. Have the courage to present the facts and let people come to their own conclusions.

mthoms 8y ago
It seemed factual to me. In fact, the Trump administration are given a lot of credit for the eventual release. It's the spin factor thats being called into question.
- jl2718 8y ago
  Well, it is factual up to a point, which is great, and then he starts speculating, which is okay, and then he turns it into some indictment of Trump for tweeting that he was tortured, and then another indictment for not attacking more on the same issue. This brings all the weak sources into question. But really the problem is that I don’t care about his politics. Not do I care about Trump. I care about the fact that an entire nation full of people is living in some kind of perverse socialist utopian hell, and this tragic case is but one glimpse into it. His name was Otto Warmbier. I will not forget.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    You won't forget what? The point of the article is that you don't know what happened to Warmbier, and if your only source of information about him was the media stories that ran prior to this article, what you might think you know about him is almost certainly false.

SomeAmerican 8y ago

The author dedicates a full section to a possible attempt at suicide. However, he doesn't even try to correlate that with the physical examinations. How does one go braindead in a suicide attempt while locked up, without leaving physical evidence of other injuries? Certainly, none of the other suicide attempts the author listed would qualify. Later in the article: "Upon learning that this article did not support claims that Otto was beaten, and included the theory that he may have attempted suicide—a possibility that the family, through their lawyer, dismissed categorically—the Warmbiers withdrew a statement that they had previously provided." The "theory" that he attempted suicide is definitely on shakier ground than the "theories" his injuries were intentionally inflicted on him by the North Koreans.

tptacek 8y ago
I think the implication that he tried to hang or strangle himself is pretty clear; it's consistent with his injury (symmetric brain damage consistent with oxygen starvation, no other external signs of injury). It is certainly possible that, rather than hanging or strangling himself, he was strangled by someone in the DPRK. The DPRK hasn't done that to any other US prisoner, but it's the DPRK, so who knows? The problem is that the narrative in the media doesn't have that uncertainty. Rather, it's reported (somewhat widely, though less so after the coroner's report) that there was evidence of physical abuse: scars on his legs, "rearranged" lower teeth, etc. It is worth adding that the article doesn't say Warmbier tried to kill himself; it just adds that to the stack of plausible causes. It is indeed a very plausible cause.
- SomeAmerican 8y ago
  How can a person hang themselves without leaving bruises? Without ligature marks? Is he some kind of ninja?
  - tptacek 8y ago
    The incident occurred a full year before he was released to the US.