5 ms·

It always hits the nerve to hear that a public organization is moving back to MS from FOSS, but I wish this kind of demand(from governments) would lead to a ope

It always hits the nerve to hear that a public organization is moving back to MS from FOSS, but I wish this kind of demand(from governments) would lead to a open company that is strictly focused on developing an alternative to Windows desktop. Linux is heavily pulled in the server direction, and we need a company other than RedHAt who can pull Linux ecosystem a bit together to build an opinionated but coherent desktop. Trying to support all of the email clients, calendar tools and obscure media decoders will never lead us to an usable Linux based Desktop.

ams6110 8y ago
> an opinionated but coherent desktop Isn't this Ubuntu?
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  I experimented with Ubuntu by giving a laptop running plain Ubuntu to my retired parents. They are new to computers and their needs are simple. * Video calls - Skype or FaceTime * watch youtube. * Transfer pictures from digital camera to laptop and view them (many times ;-) ) * local newspaper's website * play their local music library * Not confuse them. But, Ubuntu failed them miserably. They had a hard time using because, their words - "what works one time, doesn't the next time." When my dad closes the lid, he expects the laptop to go to sleep mode, and again open the lid to wake it, just doesn't work all time, give some kind of messages only a tech person would understand. Their observation - "text is not sharp". I checked it on their laptop display, Windows is rather sharp and usable while Ubuntu's default font rendering is too soft and they need to squint a bit to read. internet connectivity - There are so many issues with the default wifi setup on their laptop. Dad gets frustrated if it shows him a dialog box with information he does not understand. So, often times the laptop lies there gathering dust until I or a friend goes to their house to "fix it" - often times just reboot the damn thing. After this struggle, they bought a Windows laptop.
nine_k 8y ago
I don't see how coherence is a problem. Windows the platform is pretty incoherent. The article is light on details, but I think the issue is really in interoperability. When everyone around you runs Windows, you either have to be very good at interoperating with key Windows apps (all parts of Outlook, Word, Excel, Visio, MS Project, etc), or to run Windows, too. Part of the problem is that many of these things operate on closed data formats, and MS has little incentive to help with interoperbilty. Conversion tools can exist but they are often cumbersome, imperfect, and thus painful for regular use. This is how an ecosystem lock-in works. BTW it's not specific to Windows; every platform makes it simpler to use this platform's tools, and, because of that, any out-of-platform tools become harder to use in comparison.
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  True. It's something I didn't write in the original comment, but Office suite is another big reason for Windows being this prevalent. For most non-technical users, MS Office is the only program they know. for such non-tech users, Google docs is the lightweight office you get if you don't have the privilege of running fat Office on your desktop.. Well, technically Linux ecosystem has Open&Libre office. Many times when they show up in news feed, I download and try to use it. But, one thing thing I can always feel - awfully slow/laggy and looks like they are stuck in a decade ago and refuse to change. This makes it uncool for anybody to switch to it from MS office. Perhaps it is great for those obsessive tech users who tinker the heck out of it, but out of the box, it IS inferior in most ways. If anything incentives like these huge government implementations have the potential to start and fund a project that will develop an open & usable alternative to MS Office. One can dream.
georgewsinger 8y ago
This won't happen until Linux Desktop figures out a way to be 10x better than Windows desktop (consumers won't switch unless things are extraordinarily compelling). I would argue that VR/AR provides a small window for Linux to be 10x better than Windows. (It's true that Windows is working on MS Holographic, but it hasn't reached anything near widespread adoption). Bringing Linux Desktop to standalone VR/AR headsets is the mission of Simula: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula
- volkisch 8y ago
  This ad could've been more subtle.
nisa 8y ago
If you consider that every municipality in EU (or world) has similiar problems and the costs for running Microsoft and other commercial software is quite high everywhere I really don't know why the EU doesn't start some public company or organisation and polish the existing open-source tools. It's probably considered anti-competitive but let's image they scrap 1 billion of their budgets and invest in opensource: - polish Samba to be a viable Windows Server replacement. Replication, missing Kerberos functionality, Implement ADWS, ADFS - maybe Exchange APIs. Save millions on server costs. - unfuck LibreOffice, develop a strong foundation to implement typical processes - polish KDE / Plasma to macOS/Windows usability/stability - rewrite kmail/korganizer with modern usability/ui Not sure if that's possible but it feels like a lot of things are 60-80% done - maybe taking a leap and fixing the other 60-80% might make a difference. - have an EU wide service agency that supports municipalities in implementing OSS - demand opensource software for public money. - create strong open standards and enforce them by law for public institutions. maybe it will take 5 to 10 years but everyone should profit.
- nextos 8y ago
  I agree Linux requires some polish, but have you tried e.g. LibreOffice lately? It's very good. I have a small deployment of Linux machines running GNOME and the typical office suite applications, including LibreOffice. I'm using NixOS to ensure everything runs extremely controlled versions of software. It's rock solid. Furthermore, the users are really technologically illiterate. And they like the UI. They have no issues. I think the big problem is usually that people expect a perfect replacement for MS Office. They try to open DOC (not DOCX files) in LibreOffice. And it's not perfect. It can't be perfect, as it's playing a very hard catch up game on ill-defined file formats.
  - zamalek 8y ago
    > I think the big problem is usually that people expect a perfect replacement for MS Office. Nobody owes it to LibreOffice to use it when a superior alternative exists. DOC support is minutiae - there are certainly people who do use it, but intentionally switching away from the default (DOCX) while Office moans at you about reduced functionality seems like a huge degree of dedication to a file format. Two huge reasons why LibreOffice is currently not good enough for me: * The UI is functional and tolerable. It's not pleasant to stare at all day. Menus, toolbars and floating windows are fine if you hail from the 90s. Mozilla are a shining example to other OSS projects of what users expect in 2018[1]. Make it work, make it right, make it fast. OSS needs to learn that there is another step: make it beautiful. And they like the UI. Do they love it? * Advanced integration with Dropbox or what-have-you. Microsoft has Sharepoint. So far as I know, Office is the only thick-client suite to offer collaborative editing on top of file sharing. When you have dozens of users collaborating on a project this stuff is incredibly important. Email is not scalable - your users shouldn't be opening a DOC from an attachment in the first place. There are 13000 reasons why Lower Saxony is switching away from OSS. Dismissing what the competition offers is dismissing those 13000 reasons and means that a project will never address those reasons. Good enough is not good enough. [1]: https://design.firefox.com/photon/welcome.html https://design.firefox.com/photon/welcome.html
jolmg 8y ago
> we need a company other than RedHAt Why not government? FOSS is for free public use like any other public infrastructure. It benefits all so it seems proper for government to fund it. EDIT: If anyone wants to downvote because they disagree (not that I think that's proper use of the downvote), please at least state your opinion. I want to know.
- msiyer 8y ago
  I totally agree. I have come to realize that capitalism is a narrow-minded approach towards progress. It does not work in the long run. Capitalism and democracy are incompatible.
  - jolmg 8y ago
    Well, I disagree that capitalism doesn't work, but I can agree that it doesn't always work. Like in many other things, balance is key.

ams6110 8y ago

> an opinionated but coherent desktop Isn't this Ubuntu?

reacharavindh 8y ago
I experimented with Ubuntu by giving a laptop running plain Ubuntu to my retired parents. They are new to computers and their needs are simple. * Video calls - Skype or FaceTime * watch youtube. * Transfer pictures from digital camera to laptop and view them (many times ;-) ) * local newspaper's website * play their local music library * Not confuse them. But, Ubuntu failed them miserably. They had a hard time using because, their words - "what works one time, doesn't the next time." When my dad closes the lid, he expects the laptop to go to sleep mode, and again open the lid to wake it, just doesn't work all time, give some kind of messages only a tech person would understand. Their observation - "text is not sharp". I checked it on their laptop display, Windows is rather sharp and usable while Ubuntu's default font rendering is too soft and they need to squint a bit to read. internet connectivity - There are so many issues with the default wifi setup on their laptop. Dad gets frustrated if it shows him a dialog box with information he does not understand. So, often times the laptop lies there gathering dust until I or a friend goes to their house to "fix it" - often times just reboot the damn thing. After this struggle, they bought a Windows laptop.

nine_k 8y ago

I don't see how coherence is a problem. Windows the platform is pretty incoherent. The article is light on details, but I think the issue is really in interoperability. When everyone around you runs Windows, you either have to be very good at interoperating with key Windows apps (all parts of Outlook, Word, Excel, Visio, MS Project, etc), or to run Windows, too. Part of the problem is that many of these things operate on closed data formats, and MS has little incentive to help with interoperbilty. Conversion tools can exist but they are often cumbersome, imperfect, and thus painful for regular use. This is how an ecosystem lock-in works. BTW it's not specific to Windows; every platform makes it simpler to use this platform's tools, and, because of that, any out-of-platform tools become harder to use in comparison.

reacharavindh 8y ago
True. It's something I didn't write in the original comment, but Office suite is another big reason for Windows being this prevalent. For most non-technical users, MS Office is the only program they know. for such non-tech users, Google docs is the lightweight office you get if you don't have the privilege of running fat Office on your desktop.. Well, technically Linux ecosystem has Open&Libre office. Many times when they show up in news feed, I download and try to use it. But, one thing thing I can always feel - awfully slow/laggy and looks like they are stuck in a decade ago and refuse to change. This makes it uncool for anybody to switch to it from MS office. Perhaps it is great for those obsessive tech users who tinker the heck out of it, but out of the box, it IS inferior in most ways. If anything incentives like these huge government implementations have the potential to start and fund a project that will develop an open & usable alternative to MS Office. One can dream.

georgewsinger 8y ago

This won't happen until Linux Desktop figures out a way to be 10x better than Windows desktop (consumers won't switch unless things are extraordinarily compelling). I would argue that VR/AR provides a small window for Linux to be 10x better than Windows. (It's true that Windows is working on MS Holographic, but it hasn't reached anything near widespread adoption). Bringing Linux Desktop to standalone VR/AR headsets is the mission of Simula: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula

volkisch 8y ago
This ad could've been more subtle.

nisa 8y ago

If you consider that every municipality in EU (or world) has similiar problems and the costs for running Microsoft and other commercial software is quite high everywhere I really don't know why the EU doesn't start some public company or organisation and polish the existing open-source tools. It's probably considered anti-competitive but let's image they scrap 1 billion of their budgets and invest in opensource: - polish Samba to be a viable Windows Server replacement. Replication, missing Kerberos functionality, Implement ADWS, ADFS - maybe Exchange APIs. Save millions on server costs. - unfuck LibreOffice, develop a strong foundation to implement typical processes - polish KDE / Plasma to macOS/Windows usability/stability - rewrite kmail/korganizer with modern usability/ui Not sure if that's possible but it feels like a lot of things are 60-80% done - maybe taking a leap and fixing the other 60-80% might make a difference. - have an EU wide service agency that supports municipalities in implementing OSS - demand opensource software for public money. - create strong open standards and enforce them by law for public institutions. maybe it will take 5 to 10 years but everyone should profit.

nextos 8y ago
I agree Linux requires some polish, but have you tried e.g. LibreOffice lately? It's very good. I have a small deployment of Linux machines running GNOME and the typical office suite applications, including LibreOffice. I'm using NixOS to ensure everything runs extremely controlled versions of software. It's rock solid. Furthermore, the users are really technologically illiterate. And they like the UI. They have no issues. I think the big problem is usually that people expect a perfect replacement for MS Office. They try to open DOC (not DOCX files) in LibreOffice. And it's not perfect. It can't be perfect, as it's playing a very hard catch up game on ill-defined file formats.
- zamalek 8y ago
  > I think the big problem is usually that people expect a perfect replacement for MS Office. Nobody owes it to LibreOffice to use it when a superior alternative exists. DOC support is minutiae - there are certainly people who do use it, but intentionally switching away from the default (DOCX) while Office moans at you about reduced functionality seems like a huge degree of dedication to a file format. Two huge reasons why LibreOffice is currently not good enough for me: * The UI is functional and tolerable. It's not pleasant to stare at all day. Menus, toolbars and floating windows are fine if you hail from the 90s. Mozilla are a shining example to other OSS projects of what users expect in 2018[1]. Make it work, make it right, make it fast. OSS needs to learn that there is another step: make it beautiful. And they like the UI. Do they love it? * Advanced integration with Dropbox or what-have-you. Microsoft has Sharepoint. So far as I know, Office is the only thick-client suite to offer collaborative editing on top of file sharing. When you have dozens of users collaborating on a project this stuff is incredibly important. Email is not scalable - your users shouldn't be opening a DOC from an attachment in the first place. There are 13000 reasons why Lower Saxony is switching away from OSS. Dismissing what the competition offers is dismissing those 13000 reasons and means that a project will never address those reasons. Good enough is not good enough. [1]: https://design.firefox.com/photon/welcome.html https://design.firefox.com/photon/welcome.html

jolmg 8y ago

> we need a company other than RedHAt Why not government? FOSS is for free public use like any other public infrastructure. It benefits all so it seems proper for government to fund it. EDIT: If anyone wants to downvote because they disagree (not that I think that's proper use of the downvote), please at least state your opinion. I want to know.

msiyer 8y ago
I totally agree. I have come to realize that capitalism is a narrow-minded approach towards progress. It does not work in the long run. Capitalism and democracy are incompatible.
- jolmg 8y ago
  Well, I disagree that capitalism doesn't work, but I can agree that it doesn't always work. Like in many other things, balance is key.