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From our perspective and according to the general consensus idea that the universe is of finite age and fully in accordance with all black hole models and gener

From our perspective and according to the general consensus idea that the universe is of finite age and fully in accordance with all black hole models and general relativity, blacks holes cannot exist in our universe. That does not mean what we have observed is not interesting, It is, but we don't know what it is, though we know it is not the "black hole" of theory. There are no circumstance under the prevailing theories for which any kind of "black hole" can come into existence anywhere in our universe. Black holes are wonderful "flights of fancy" just like the Stargate and the Ancients Hyperdrive and just like the Star Trek Warp Drive. "Black Holes" require certain assumptions for their formation in the theoretical sense and since those assumptions are not found in our universe, all models of "black holes" have an automatic failure point. All discussions about "black holes" being real, ignore those discrepancies and assume that they can exist. If you fail to agree with the "reality" of "black hole" formation, you become persona non grata. The problem with the "black hole reality" assumption is that we cut off entire streams of investigation into what the observed phenomena may be. We are stuck in a very little corner of the universe and we cannot see many things up close. Our model assumptions colour our understanding of what we see. There are many of our observations that are anomalous to the prevailing theories that are considered "correct". Yet, if you (as an observational or experimental scientist) raise questions in relation to the consensus models, you will be quickly put in your place. It is quite interesting that for a supposedly advanced civilisation, much of our technology and scientific endeavour is ruled by dogma. This does not lead to the advancement of our understanding of the universe around us. Just as other people have said before me and as I have said before - "There are no silly or stupid questions". Science is one useful tool we have for investigation of the universe around us. But the outcomes we find using it in our investigations of the universe around us are predicated on the basic assumptions we bring to the table in those investigations. It is one tool among many that we have and when people use it as the only tool that has meaning, they have moved it from being a useful tool to being a dogmatic tool. they have made science into a religion.

pdonis 8y ago
> There are no circumstance under the prevailing theories for which any kind of "black hole" can come into existence anywhere in our universe You are peddling misinformation here. You really need to get a correct understanding of black holes.
- oldandtired 8y ago
  I have been occupied with other things and only now have the time to respond. Every model of "black hole" has as a fundamental underpinning which is time dilation due to increasing gravity (by whatever definition of gravity you may use). At whichever "event horizon" you may choose (in discussions with physicists, they have claimed a minimum of three different event horizons), time at the event horizon as observed from the universe at large stops. The underpinnings of "black holes" requires an eternal universe, no "big bang", no finite age. Formation as we see stops and can never proceed in finite time. We live in a small isolated part of our galaxy and we are unable to observe clearly many sections of our own galaxy. We rely on proxies and a belief that these proxies are adequate to match to the models and theories that are considered to be correct by consensus. If you think about "black hole" formation as described by the various models in use, there are a number of assumptions made that don't actually match what see in our observable universe or in any practical experiments we do. I am no mathematician or theoretical physicist, but every source of mathematics that I have studied and am continuing to study makes it quite clear that our mathematics is approximate in its mapping to reality. There is nothing wrong with this technique, but it does mean that one has to take what results we get with a grain of salt when comparing to the actual universe around us. I find that when any of the many mathematical models in use today is declared as "reality", then I see this as the peddling of misinformation. Mathematics can and does provide us with a tool that is useful in describing what we see around us. But it is limited and always has its failure points. It is interesting that I have had this discussion about disagreeing with the consensus view with someone (a physicist) who argue for it, yet they themselves hold a particular non-consensus view over other matters relating to cosmology and could not see the extended possibilities in looking at different potential models and theories. The simple point is that the mathematical models and theories are possible maps of the territory and are not the actual territory itself. It doesn't matter how detailed that map appears to be, it is still missing a great deal of the detail of territory itself. When it is used to decry alternative models because they are different, without actually testing those models for any kind of veracity, then we have a problem. The simple fact is, we actually have little understanding of the universe about us. When we find discrepancies or phenomena that don't match the current models, we should be big enough to allow people to investigate alternatives freely without treating them as pariahs and heretics. It may well be that those alternatives have no veracity, but then again, they may be the start of a new outlook and understanding of the universe about us. It is an unfortunate fact of life that people who disagree with the consensus view will be treated badly. This is a function of what it is to be human.
eigenloss 8y ago
You cannot prove the results of decades of physics and mathematical debate wrong with a few paragraphs of emotional arguments about dogma or some cheap mockery of a TV show.
- oldandtired 8y ago
  See my comments above. When it comes down to it, scientists of all ilks are people and are just as prone to every failing of people anywhere. I enjoy science fiction in its many forms, irrespective if it is based on consensus models or not. But I do get somewhat concerned when freedom of investigation is curtailed due to those investigations not matching up to the consensus views. If someone wants to devote themselves to a particular field and do it logically and systematically designing experiments and theories based on their results, then why not let them without treating them as idiots, cranks and pariahs. It is their time and effort and if they can make a case for funding, then let them have the funding. What is more important? Upholding the consensus view or increasing our understanding of the universe around us? Unless we test different models and theories, we have no idea whether or not our consensus models and theories are better or worse in giving us a practical basis for understanding the universe around us.

pdonis 8y ago

> There are no circumstance under the prevailing theories for which any kind of "black hole" can come into existence anywhere in our universe You are peddling misinformation here. You really need to get a correct understanding of black holes.

oldandtired 8y ago
I have been occupied with other things and only now have the time to respond. Every model of "black hole" has as a fundamental underpinning which is time dilation due to increasing gravity (by whatever definition of gravity you may use). At whichever "event horizon" you may choose (in discussions with physicists, they have claimed a minimum of three different event horizons), time at the event horizon as observed from the universe at large stops. The underpinnings of "black holes" requires an eternal universe, no "big bang", no finite age. Formation as we see stops and can never proceed in finite time. We live in a small isolated part of our galaxy and we are unable to observe clearly many sections of our own galaxy. We rely on proxies and a belief that these proxies are adequate to match to the models and theories that are considered to be correct by consensus. If you think about "black hole" formation as described by the various models in use, there are a number of assumptions made that don't actually match what see in our observable universe or in any practical experiments we do. I am no mathematician or theoretical physicist, but every source of mathematics that I have studied and am continuing to study makes it quite clear that our mathematics is approximate in its mapping to reality. There is nothing wrong with this technique, but it does mean that one has to take what results we get with a grain of salt when comparing to the actual universe around us. I find that when any of the many mathematical models in use today is declared as "reality", then I see this as the peddling of misinformation. Mathematics can and does provide us with a tool that is useful in describing what we see around us. But it is limited and always has its failure points. It is interesting that I have had this discussion about disagreeing with the consensus view with someone (a physicist) who argue for it, yet they themselves hold a particular non-consensus view over other matters relating to cosmology and could not see the extended possibilities in looking at different potential models and theories. The simple point is that the mathematical models and theories are possible maps of the territory and are not the actual territory itself. It doesn't matter how detailed that map appears to be, it is still missing a great deal of the detail of territory itself. When it is used to decry alternative models because they are different, without actually testing those models for any kind of veracity, then we have a problem. The simple fact is, we actually have little understanding of the universe about us. When we find discrepancies or phenomena that don't match the current models, we should be big enough to allow people to investigate alternatives freely without treating them as pariahs and heretics. It may well be that those alternatives have no veracity, but then again, they may be the start of a new outlook and understanding of the universe about us. It is an unfortunate fact of life that people who disagree with the consensus view will be treated badly. This is a function of what it is to be human.

eigenloss 8y ago

You cannot prove the results of decades of physics and mathematical debate wrong with a few paragraphs of emotional arguments about dogma or some cheap mockery of a TV show.

oldandtired 8y ago
See my comments above. When it comes down to it, scientists of all ilks are people and are just as prone to every failing of people anywhere. I enjoy science fiction in its many forms, irrespective if it is based on consensus models or not. But I do get somewhat concerned when freedom of investigation is curtailed due to those investigations not matching up to the consensus views. If someone wants to devote themselves to a particular field and do it logically and systematically designing experiments and theories based on their results, then why not let them without treating them as idiots, cranks and pariahs. It is their time and effort and if they can make a case for funding, then let them have the funding. What is more important? Upholding the consensus view or increasing our understanding of the universe around us? Unless we test different models and theories, we have no idea whether or not our consensus models and theories are better or worse in giving us a practical basis for understanding the universe around us.