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This isn't the only shenanigans surrounding the leave campaign. Here's another example of dodgy Leave Campaign funding - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-i

by derriz 8y ago

This isn't the only shenanigans surrounding the leave campaign. Here's another example of dodgy Leave Campaign funding - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 - where the DUP, a Northern Irish party, was given $600,000 to campaign for Leave by a shell company and spent most of it on advertisements in media that wasn't even available in Northern Ireland. But it's not surprising really. There has been a persistent anti-EU propaganda campaign running in the UK for years if not decades. I really like this site - https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ - as it contains links to the original "fake news" stories along with references which refute them.

growlist 8y ago
Why do you think these stories have traction in the UK? Do you think the UK has no legitimate grounds to question EU membership?
- derriz 8y ago
  To answer your second question, of course it has. I don’t understand your first question? Those anti-EU stories were lies pure and simple - all the references are provided on the linked site. Are you in favour of the media publishing lies in order to advance a political viewpoint?
  - growlist 8y ago
    If the EU were not already loathed by some the stories would find no audience, is my belief. For example, I met a plasterer who said that immigrants were destroying his livelihood by working for peanuts. If I were him I'd probably blame the EU also. But I also think the result was seen as an opportunity to send a general two fingered FU to the establishment, both UK and EU - I don't think the coordinated FUD and Obama etc did Remain any favours whatsoever. Surely better to take the high ground and rhapsodise our fantastic future in the EU? Remain chose not to do that.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      Outside of regular hit pieces in the Daily Mail and Telegraph there's little real awareness of the EU in the UK. The EU haven't been especially good at getting the message about their successes out. The little we do see is an occasional news piece about a joint venture or a little EU flag on some region's signage because they received development funding. The irony that some of the most resounding leave votes were in regions heavily supported by EU funds was not lost on me. Clearly the UK governments hadn't been doing enough for the people in those regions or they'd not have have been eligible for that support. Clearly the message that the EU was trying to help didn't get to the people concerned. Both sides lied, both sides ran terrible negative campaigns. No one anywhere seemed to promote the EU as being good in any respect - just it's least worst. Only leave chose to pander to xenophobics, closet racists and suggest a FU to the establishment at every opportunity.
      - growlist 8y ago
        To an extent I think the whole thing is borderline unknowable and inseparable from political leanings, so I bid you goodnight Sir.
- pjc50 8y ago
  There are legitimate criticisms of the functioning of the EU, absolutely. However, leaving the EU does not make the EU go away; even if other countries leave, relations still have to be negotiated with them. Bilateralism at that scale is probably unworkable, so it would end up being done through a different unaccountable international institution. I'd take the EU over the WTO or TTIP any day of the week.
GW150914 8y ago
Remember when The Daily Express said that 150 new EU laws were “Ruining Britain,” and these were their top 8 of those laws? https://mobile.twitter.com/StuartWilksHeeg/status/481452927610257409/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/StuartWilksHeeg/status/4814529276... Tag line of TDE article* The merciless grip of Brussels on the lives of millions of Britons is laid bare today by the Daily Express. So merciless. It seems like a lot of the “anti-EU” sentiment expressed amounted to dog whistles for anti-immigrant sentiment. If it’s not that, then I guess Leavers just hate labeling juice. Or maybe cockneys simply can’t enjoy a laundry day that doesn’t positively reek of phosphorous? No, I think it was the immigration issues.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  It's a very long time since the Express resembled a decent newspaper. It's seemed well into Sunday Sport territory after Desmond bought it.
repolfx 8y ago
The claim that Leave overspent or had dodgy funding doesn't hold water: the rules are quite clearly being abused or twisted to try and nail the Leave campaign, just like the government used every other resource at its disposal to try and win. In particular the government spent millions of pounds - more than the entire allowed budget of the remain campaign - on a giant mailshot to the entire country arguing the case to remain. They claim this is OK because it was done just before the time period in which spending was limited began. Yet it was clearly spending on the campaign. They then turned around and claimed Leave broke the rules because of a few hundred thousand pounds. A lot of this revolves around a supposedly neutral electoral commission that is stuffed with people who openly stated they wanted Leave to lose. There is no credibility to any of the UK's campaign spending controls and they should probably all be scrapped. As for the "euromyths" site, you've been fooled I'm afraid. It is filled with non-debunkings of "myths" and "lies" (as you put it) that turn out on inspection to be true. It's deeply embarrassing for the EU and shows they don't really understand why a free press exists, and by implication that Leave's arguments about the EU being undemocratic have weight. For example one of the first stories listed on the page is "EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015". The newspaper reports were completely true and the EU's response is to complain that they aren't appreciated enough: https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-european-development-fund-offers-aid-to-the-poorest-countries-in-forms-that-are-most-likely-to-deliver-results-for-the-local-people/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-european-developmen... It says: The articles call funding for deprived communities in some of the poorest parts in the world “frivolous expenditure” and Elaborate metaphors and frivolous choice of visuals aside, mastering – to quote the articles – “the art of the trapeze” can open job opportunities for a person in Tanzania (by the way, the same project also provides courses in carpentry and sewing). The Commission not only missed the entire point the journalists were making - that EU member states struggling to pay their own healthcare and welfare bills should not be forced to fund trapeze lessons in Tanzania - but then also engaged in this embarrassing and condescending exercise as well. Far from the press lying to you, you've been tricked by the EU lying about the press.
- derriz 8y ago
  I really don't understand how you could describe it as "abuse" to raise questions about the DUP case; are you challenging any of the facts raised in the article - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 ? Btw. the Leave campaign also received public funding both in direct cash and to cover the costs of public mailings for example. It's all very well saying the spending limits should be scrapped but they were the rules in place for the referendum. You should campaign for a change in the rules, not covertly abuse the rules through shadowy shell companies and later - when exposed - argue that the rules shouldn't exists. Regarding the euromyths site, do you really find the newspaper's protrayal of EU foreign aid/development fund spending to be honest? I guess there is a certain subjectivenss to the question but I simply cannot reconsile the content of the the newspaper's stories "The Commission not only missed the entire point the journalists were making - that EU member states struggling to pay their own healthcare and welfare bills should not be forced to fund trapeze lessons in Tanzania - but then also engaged in this embarrassing and condescending exercise as well." This is where you've veered off from making any sort of reasonable point I could argue with to practicing the same EU-bashing the UK newspapers have been doing for years. The UK government spends about 15B EUR from it's own budget each year on foreign aid. The WHOLE OF the EU spends about 4B a year. The UK contributes NET about 7% of the EU budget, so on a pro-rata basis, the EU development fund costs the UK 250 million a year compared to the 15 billion it spends directly. So your "consern" about healthcare and welfare spendingn is completely misplaced or disingenious.

by derriz 8y ago

growlist 8y ago

Why do you think these stories have traction in the UK? Do you think the UK has no legitimate grounds to question EU membership?

derriz 8y ago
To answer your second question, of course it has. I don’t understand your first question? Those anti-EU stories were lies pure and simple - all the references are provided on the linked site. Are you in favour of the media publishing lies in order to advance a political viewpoint?
- growlist 8y ago
  If the EU were not already loathed by some the stories would find no audience, is my belief. For example, I met a plasterer who said that immigrants were destroying his livelihood by working for peanuts. If I were him I'd probably blame the EU also. But I also think the result was seen as an opportunity to send a general two fingered FU to the establishment, both UK and EU - I don't think the coordinated FUD and Obama etc did Remain any favours whatsoever. Surely better to take the high ground and rhapsodise our fantastic future in the EU? Remain chose not to do that.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Outside of regular hit pieces in the Daily Mail and Telegraph there's little real awareness of the EU in the UK. The EU haven't been especially good at getting the message about their successes out. The little we do see is an occasional news piece about a joint venture or a little EU flag on some region's signage because they received development funding. The irony that some of the most resounding leave votes were in regions heavily supported by EU funds was not lost on me. Clearly the UK governments hadn't been doing enough for the people in those regions or they'd not have have been eligible for that support. Clearly the message that the EU was trying to help didn't get to the people concerned. Both sides lied, both sides ran terrible negative campaigns. No one anywhere seemed to promote the EU as being good in any respect - just it's least worst. Only leave chose to pander to xenophobics, closet racists and suggest a FU to the establishment at every opportunity.
    - growlist 8y ago
      To an extent I think the whole thing is borderline unknowable and inseparable from political leanings, so I bid you goodnight Sir.
pjc50 8y ago
There are legitimate criticisms of the functioning of the EU, absolutely. However, leaving the EU does not make the EU go away; even if other countries leave, relations still have to be negotiated with them. Bilateralism at that scale is probably unworkable, so it would end up being done through a different unaccountable international institution. I'd take the EU over the WTO or TTIP any day of the week.

GW150914 8y ago

Remember when The Daily Express said that 150 new EU laws were “Ruining Britain,” and these were their top 8 of those laws? https://mobile.twitter.com/StuartWilksHeeg/status/481452927610257409/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/StuartWilksHeeg/status/4814529276... Tag line of TDE article* The merciless grip of Brussels on the lives of millions of Britons is laid bare today by the Daily Express. So merciless. It seems like a lot of the “anti-EU” sentiment expressed amounted to dog whistles for anti-immigrant sentiment. If it’s not that, then I guess Leavers just hate labeling juice. Or maybe cockneys simply can’t enjoy a laundry day that doesn’t positively reek of phosphorous? No, I think it was the immigration issues.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
It's a very long time since the Express resembled a decent newspaper. It's seemed well into Sunday Sport territory after Desmond bought it.

repolfx 8y ago

The claim that Leave overspent or had dodgy funding doesn't hold water: the rules are quite clearly being abused or twisted to try and nail the Leave campaign, just like the government used every other resource at its disposal to try and win. In particular the government spent millions of pounds - more than the entire allowed budget of the remain campaign - on a giant mailshot to the entire country arguing the case to remain. They claim this is OK because it was done just before the time period in which spending was limited began. Yet it was clearly spending on the campaign. They then turned around and claimed Leave broke the rules because of a few hundred thousand pounds. A lot of this revolves around a supposedly neutral electoral commission that is stuffed with people who openly stated they wanted Leave to lose. There is no credibility to any of the UK's campaign spending controls and they should probably all be scrapped. As for the "euromyths" site, you've been fooled I'm afraid. It is filled with non-debunkings of "myths" and "lies" (as you put it) that turn out on inspection to be true. It's deeply embarrassing for the EU and shows they don't really understand why a free press exists, and by implication that Leave's arguments about the EU being undemocratic have weight. For example one of the first stories listed on the page is "EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015". The newspaper reports were completely true and the EU's response is to complain that they aren't appreciated enough: https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-european-development-fund-offers-aid-to-the-poorest-countries-in-forms-that-are-most-likely-to-deliver-results-for-the-local-people/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-european-developmen... It says: The articles call funding for deprived communities in some of the poorest parts in the world “frivolous expenditure” and Elaborate metaphors and frivolous choice of visuals aside, mastering – to quote the articles – “the art of the trapeze” can open job opportunities for a person in Tanzania (by the way, the same project also provides courses in carpentry and sewing). The Commission not only missed the entire point the journalists were making - that EU member states struggling to pay their own healthcare and welfare bills should not be forced to fund trapeze lessons in Tanzania - but then also engaged in this embarrassing and condescending exercise as well. Far from the press lying to you, you've been tricked by the EU lying about the press.

derriz 8y ago
I really don't understand how you could describe it as "abuse" to raise questions about the DUP case; are you challenging any of the facts raised in the article - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 ? Btw. the Leave campaign also received public funding both in direct cash and to cover the costs of public mailings for example. It's all very well saying the spending limits should be scrapped but they were the rules in place for the referendum. You should campaign for a change in the rules, not covertly abuse the rules through shadowy shell companies and later - when exposed - argue that the rules shouldn't exists. Regarding the euromyths site, do you really find the newspaper's protrayal of EU foreign aid/development fund spending to be honest? I guess there is a certain subjectivenss to the question but I simply cannot reconsile the content of the the newspaper's stories "The Commission not only missed the entire point the journalists were making - that EU member states struggling to pay their own healthcare and welfare bills should not be forced to fund trapeze lessons in Tanzania - but then also engaged in this embarrassing and condescending exercise as well." This is where you've veered off from making any sort of reasonable point I could argue with to practicing the same EU-bashing the UK newspapers have been doing for years. The UK government spends about 15B EUR from it's own budget each year on foreign aid. The WHOLE OF the EU spends about 4B a year. The UK contributes NET about 7% of the EU budget, so on a pro-rata basis, the EU development fund costs the UK 250 million a year compared to the 15 billion it spends directly. So your "consern" about healthcare and welfare spendingn is completely misplaced or disingenious.