4 ms·

FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program (http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teaching ht

by jbarham 16y ago

FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program (http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teaching http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teachin...) but that obviously hasn't prevented the company from being a success. But then 37signals started off as a web design firm, and he had the good fortune to hire DHH.

alnayyir 16y ago
I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, so he overcame the necessity of this advice through that and the fact that the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case.
- trustfundbaby 16y ago
  wait. what!?!?
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    Do you have a specific part of that, that you take exception with? Replies like "wait. what?!" don't actually contribute to the conversation on YC.News and are functionally, pollution. Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange. Much like your own, actually. Confer with http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In the "In Comments" section for more info if you haven't reviewed it already. Thank you.
    - trustfundbaby 16y ago
      Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange --------------------------------------------- I fail to see where that part is reflected in the guidelines. The comment basically contradicted itself enough that I felt that they actually needed to explain themselves further. But as requested I will proceed to write a small thesis on why I think their comment is wrong, if you'll permit me dear protector of hacker news.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
- trustfundbaby 16y ago
  > I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, So what you're saying is ... learn to program, unless you are sharp enough to identify talent and 'bullshit' ... How would one identify this innate ability to know that they didn't need to actually learn how to program then? > the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case. Care to explain why?
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    He's a pretty prolific writer, if you want to know more about him, just go read. I don't buy into everything he's selling (cf. Rework), but I think there's stuff worth picking out of his brain. I'm not his interlocutor nor his defender. Go read and decide for yourself.
- shadowsun7 16y ago
  Nope this isn't accurate. It's true, but it's not accurate. You have to remember Fried is a web designer. So while he can't design, he has had experience working on things, launching things, talking to developers. And he's willing to put his money where his mouth is - he hired DHH to work on Basecamp, but only after he asked around, looking for help in learning to try to code it himself.
  - wtn 16y ago
    I saw Fried speak at Chicago CocoaHeads, a very technically skilled audience, about two years ago. His presentation was almost entirely a sales pitch for 37signals products, which I thought was very condescending and a missed opportunity.
    - jasonfried 16y ago
      I think you have me confused with someone else. I haven't spoken at a Chicago CocoaHeads conference.
      - wtn 16y ago
        No, you're wrong. It was a CAWUG user group meeting at the Apple Store in Chicago. There is no way in hell I would mistake you for anyone else. DHH was there as well.
      - wtn 16y ago
        MEETING: Chicago CocoaHeads / CAWUG Tuesday Jan. 13th, 2009 Agenda: - Special Apple Store Presentation: Jason Fried, founder of 37 Signals - adjournment to O'Toole's When: Tuesday, January 13th, 7:00 PM Where: Apple Store Michigan Avenue 679 North Michigan Ave. (at the corner of Huron & Michigan Ave.) (Everyone in the audience was a developer.)
  - shadowsun7 16y ago
    Oops, I meant 'so while he can't code*'
jasonfried 16y ago
My skills are design, writing, business, strategy, and product vision. I'm not a programmer, but I'm intimately involved with every piece of UI across our product line as well as our marketing sites. Some of the UI I design myself, some I work with other designers on, and other bits I give advice, feedback, and guidance on. I also write the copy on all of our sites, and I'm involved with most of the copy in the apps themselves as well. I hired DHH as a programmer (and then made him a partner) because those were skills I didn't have. I've done some PHP programming in the past, and I met DHH when he was a PHP programmer, so I was able to evaluate his talent at a very basic level. Beyond that, however, I liked his business mind and general approach to things - they were closely aligned with my own. I hope this helps explain the dynamic a bit. Let me know if you have any other questions.
- christonog 16y ago
  Just out of curiosity, to what extent do you do design? Is it just interface design, making that interface look good through Photoshop, or going as far as coding up the HTML and CSS? Additionally, what would you say are requirements for becoming good at business, strategy, and product vision? I'm looking to eventually move into these roles myself.
  - jasonfried 16y ago
    I code all the way through HTML/CSS. I don't use Photoshop for web design (beyond scaling photos and stuff like that). My take on why I skip Photoshop and go straight to HTML/CSS when designing web UIs: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1061-why-we-skip-photoshop http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1061-why-we-skip-photoshop I think it's crucial that anyone who designs interfaces for the web understands how to design and code in HTML/CSS.
- jbarham 16y ago
  Thanks for clarifying your role at 37signals, which I think illustrates the importance of the non-technical but still crucial skills that make a business successful. We programmers are IMO too prone to over-emphasize the importance of coding ability since that's what we're comfortable with. BTW, I sincerely meant no disrespect. I've been following 37signals since the homepage was the manifesto (http://37signals.com/manifesto http://37signals.com/manifesto) and am a great admirer of the 37signals' bootstrap business philosophy which I think is a healthy counter-weight to the VC-centric Silicon Valley mindset.

by jbarham 16y ago

alnayyir 16y ago

I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, so he overcame the necessity of this advice through that and the fact that the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case.

trustfundbaby 16y ago
wait. what!?!?
- alnayyir 16y ago
  Do you have a specific part of that, that you take exception with? Replies like "wait. what?!" don't actually contribute to the conversation on YC.News and are functionally, pollution. Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange. Much like your own, actually. Confer with http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In the "In Comments" section for more info if you haven't reviewed it already. Thank you.
  - trustfundbaby 16y ago
    Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange --------------------------------------------- I fail to see where that part is reflected in the guidelines. The comment basically contradicted itself enough that I felt that they actually needed to explain themselves further. But as requested I will proceed to write a small thesis on why I think their comment is wrong, if you'll permit me dear protector of hacker news.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
trustfundbaby 16y ago
> I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, So what you're saying is ... learn to program, unless you are sharp enough to identify talent and 'bullshit' ... How would one identify this innate ability to know that they didn't need to actually learn how to program then? > the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case. Care to explain why?
- alnayyir 16y ago
  He's a pretty prolific writer, if you want to know more about him, just go read. I don't buy into everything he's selling (cf. Rework), but I think there's stuff worth picking out of his brain. I'm not his interlocutor nor his defender. Go read and decide for yourself.
shadowsun7 16y ago
Nope this isn't accurate. It's true, but it's not accurate. You have to remember Fried is a web designer. So while he can't design, he has had experience working on things, launching things, talking to developers. And he's willing to put his money where his mouth is - he hired DHH to work on Basecamp, but only after he asked around, looking for help in learning to try to code it himself.
- wtn 16y ago
  I saw Fried speak at Chicago CocoaHeads, a very technically skilled audience, about two years ago. His presentation was almost entirely a sales pitch for 37signals products, which I thought was very condescending and a missed opportunity.
  - jasonfried 16y ago
    I think you have me confused with someone else. I haven't spoken at a Chicago CocoaHeads conference.
    - wtn 16y ago
      No, you're wrong. It was a CAWUG user group meeting at the Apple Store in Chicago. There is no way in hell I would mistake you for anyone else. DHH was there as well.
    - wtn 16y ago
      MEETING: Chicago CocoaHeads / CAWUG Tuesday Jan. 13th, 2009 Agenda: - Special Apple Store Presentation: Jason Fried, founder of 37 Signals - adjournment to O'Toole's When: Tuesday, January 13th, 7:00 PM Where: Apple Store Michigan Avenue 679 North Michigan Ave. (at the corner of Huron & Michigan Ave.) (Everyone in the audience was a developer.)
- shadowsun7 16y ago
  Oops, I meant 'so while he can't code*'

jasonfried 16y ago

My skills are design, writing, business, strategy, and product vision. I'm not a programmer, but I'm intimately involved with every piece of UI across our product line as well as our marketing sites. Some of the UI I design myself, some I work with other designers on, and other bits I give advice, feedback, and guidance on. I also write the copy on all of our sites, and I'm involved with most of the copy in the apps themselves as well. I hired DHH as a programmer (and then made him a partner) because those were skills I didn't have. I've done some PHP programming in the past, and I met DHH when he was a PHP programmer, so I was able to evaluate his talent at a very basic level. Beyond that, however, I liked his business mind and general approach to things - they were closely aligned with my own. I hope this helps explain the dynamic a bit. Let me know if you have any other questions.

christonog 16y ago
Just out of curiosity, to what extent do you do design? Is it just interface design, making that interface look good through Photoshop, or going as far as coding up the HTML and CSS? Additionally, what would you say are requirements for becoming good at business, strategy, and product vision? I'm looking to eventually move into these roles myself.
- jasonfried 16y ago
  I code all the way through HTML/CSS. I don't use Photoshop for web design (beyond scaling photos and stuff like that). My take on why I skip Photoshop and go straight to HTML/CSS when designing web UIs: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1061-why-we-skip-photoshop http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1061-why-we-skip-photoshop I think it's crucial that anyone who designs interfaces for the web understands how to design and code in HTML/CSS.
jbarham 16y ago
Thanks for clarifying your role at 37signals, which I think illustrates the importance of the non-technical but still crucial skills that make a business successful. We programmers are IMO too prone to over-emphasize the importance of coding ability since that's what we're comfortable with. BTW, I sincerely meant no disrespect. I've been following 37signals since the homepage was the manifesto (http://37signals.com/manifesto http://37signals.com/manifesto) and am a great admirer of the 37signals' bootstrap business philosophy which I think is a healthy counter-weight to the VC-centric Silicon Valley mindset.