4 ms·

The article is incredibly biased. Although Phoebus was a price fixing cartel, the "planned obsolescence" is bullshit. Walmart replaces all of their lights and b

The article is incredibly biased. Although Phoebus was a price fixing cartel, the "planned obsolescence" is bullshit. Walmart replaces all of their lights and ballasts (power converters for the lights) on a regular schedule. That is why you rarely see lights not working at Walmart anymore. They don't do it because they want all the lights to work. They do it because if they don't, it costs more in energy and the brightness goes down. Long life incandescents also put out less light per watt and end up using more energy as the bulb ages as well as the light decreasing. Often times I would replace the bulbs before they died because the light was too low. We do not have "truly free markets" and never have. This is not an example of that because there are no examples of that.

Ibethewalrus 8y ago
Source about Walmart?
mirimir 8y ago
Maybe there is no "free market". But without Phoebus, customers could have chosen between shorter-life bulbs that were more efficient, and longer-life bulbs with lower replacement costs. How is that bad?
- chlvsl 8y ago
  the unwashed masses often lack adequate background, information, or necessary context to make a balanced, well-suited solution that will maximize their utility based on their needs.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    You're being sarcastic, right? It doesn't matter what the "unwashed masses" lack. What matters is that they have the choice. Your argument is tantamount to "I have this gun, so I know best how to maximize the utility of your wallet."
    - chlvsl 8y ago
      First off, that's a false analogy. That being said, it's 50/50. Yeah, obviously people should be allowed to make their own choices but you also have to realize that people like 'us' (20-40yo tech career westerners) live a far different life and probably employ much better personal criteria than others do. It's not inherently a false statement but it shouldn't be used to take power from people. Long story short I agree with you but a lot of people don't fully understand the ramifications of their actions.
carapace 8y ago
> the "planned obsolescence" is bullshit Nonsense. We could have light-bulbs that last longer but we don't because someone wants to make more money and can externalize the costs of waste. Planned obsolescence is rampant and getting worse. (How many iPhones have you bought?)
- xigma 8y ago
  Lightbulbs that last longer can't burn as bright, will use more electricity and do cost more. Nothing stops any company from creating long-lasting lightbulbs and they do in fact exist, but the consumer demand for them isn't necessarily higher because of it. >> How many iPhones have you bought? Three. Got a 6S right now, still running well and I'm not looking to upgrade. If I cared about it becoming obsolete, I could get a Shift phone instead. The reality is that most consumers don't mind swapping phones on a regular basis, they want to go with the technological progress. On the other hand, smartphones aren't getting that much better anymore and consumers are delaying upgrades. If they truly valued long-lasting phones with replaceable parts, those phones would be successful. They're not, they are a small niche.
  - carapace 8y ago
    > Lightbulbs that last longer can't burn as bright, will use more electricity and do cost more. Bah. Even if that's true now it's not inherently true. > Nothing stops any company from creating long-lasting lightbulbs and they do in fact exist Common-sense and self-interest stops them from making longer-lasting bulbs cheaper. We are discussing this on a thread about a lightbulb cartel, are we not? I'm not saying all businessmen are evil or anything like that, I'm pointing out that various forms of more-or-less deliberate obsolescence and waste are endemic to our economies. This is hardly controversial. > most consumers don't mind swapping phones on a regular basis To hell with what "consumers don't mind" it's wasteful. Close the loop: imagine what goes into making one of those things and what happens to it after you're done with it. > technological progress The display is better, the super computer is thinner and lighter. I get it. It's incremental improvement on the Tricorder from Star Trek. But Apple isn't making new phones every N months because "consumers don't mind" but because they want to make even more money. They have more cash than Scrooge MacDuck. And they know they can get people to hand over hundreds of dollars a pop just to track that sweet "technological progress", just like sports sneakers. I'm kind of in awe of the Apple Store. It's like a cattle call. People line up, the technician plugs in the diagnostic widget and performs the sacrament, then tells them how much money to put in the box to make the magic stone work again. Apple is beyond planned obsolesce. Not only have they installed a digital shopping mall in the purses and pockets of Jane and Joe Average, they have trained their users to return again and again to keep "fixing" their malls. Now, I wouldn't mind but for the waste! We are surrounded by waste. If you go into your kitchen and kneel down in front of the fridge and open the door you'll feel a wash of cold air pouring out. Warm air is rushing in at the top to replace it. This happens every time you open your fridge. You pay for the electricity to cool that air. Why are refrigerators built like cabinets rather than drawers? Pilot lights in heaters and stoves. Gasoline is what's left over after all the other useful things in petroleum are extracted. After all the high-grade fuel and plastic and whatnot are made, the leftover oil is treated and sent to the gas stations. Cars and trucks function, in part, as a waste disposal system for the oil industry. You can put a spark plug in your tail pipe with a switch on the dash and send twenty-foot flames shooting out of the back of your car. People used to do it for kicks. This works because the carburetor doesn't fully "atomize" the fuel: there are blobs and streamers and these do not burn completely in the engine and are flushed out in the exhaust. There are dozens of "magic" carburetors and carburetor mods that can improve your gas mileage. I collect ideas, like some people collect stamps or butterflies. It's fun, but it's also frustrating, because I started to realize that we do not live in the best of all possible worlds. There are all sorts of technologies that are completely neglected that would be so cool to have available. Light bulbs that last twenty or thirty years are nothing. The bottom line is we live in an inferior timeline largely to to venality and ignorance. "Planned obsolesce" is a real thing and a curse.
nbsd4life 8y ago
> The cartel tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that lasted more than 1,000 hours If their motivations were pure, they would set a standard for efficiency and/or brightness, or a minimum but not maximum of 1,000 hours.

Ibethewalrus 8y ago

Source about Walmart?

mirimir 8y ago

Maybe there is no "free market". But without Phoebus, customers could have chosen between shorter-life bulbs that were more efficient, and longer-life bulbs with lower replacement costs. How is that bad?

chlvsl 8y ago
the unwashed masses often lack adequate background, information, or necessary context to make a balanced, well-suited solution that will maximize their utility based on their needs.
- mirimir 8y ago
  You're being sarcastic, right? It doesn't matter what the "unwashed masses" lack. What matters is that they have the choice. Your argument is tantamount to "I have this gun, so I know best how to maximize the utility of your wallet."
  - chlvsl 8y ago
    First off, that's a false analogy. That being said, it's 50/50. Yeah, obviously people should be allowed to make their own choices but you also have to realize that people like 'us' (20-40yo tech career westerners) live a far different life and probably employ much better personal criteria than others do. It's not inherently a false statement but it shouldn't be used to take power from people. Long story short I agree with you but a lot of people don't fully understand the ramifications of their actions.

carapace 8y ago

> the "planned obsolescence" is bullshit Nonsense. We could have light-bulbs that last longer but we don't because someone wants to make more money and can externalize the costs of waste. Planned obsolescence is rampant and getting worse. (How many iPhones have you bought?)

xigma 8y ago
Lightbulbs that last longer can't burn as bright, will use more electricity and do cost more. Nothing stops any company from creating long-lasting lightbulbs and they do in fact exist, but the consumer demand for them isn't necessarily higher because of it. >> How many iPhones have you bought? Three. Got a 6S right now, still running well and I'm not looking to upgrade. If I cared about it becoming obsolete, I could get a Shift phone instead. The reality is that most consumers don't mind swapping phones on a regular basis, they want to go with the technological progress. On the other hand, smartphones aren't getting that much better anymore and consumers are delaying upgrades. If they truly valued long-lasting phones with replaceable parts, those phones would be successful. They're not, they are a small niche.
- carapace 8y ago
  > Lightbulbs that last longer can't burn as bright, will use more electricity and do cost more. Bah. Even if that's true now it's not inherently true. > Nothing stops any company from creating long-lasting lightbulbs and they do in fact exist Common-sense and self-interest stops them from making longer-lasting bulbs cheaper. We are discussing this on a thread about a lightbulb cartel, are we not? I'm not saying all businessmen are evil or anything like that, I'm pointing out that various forms of more-or-less deliberate obsolescence and waste are endemic to our economies. This is hardly controversial. > most consumers don't mind swapping phones on a regular basis To hell with what "consumers don't mind" it's wasteful. Close the loop: imagine what goes into making one of those things and what happens to it after you're done with it. > technological progress The display is better, the super computer is thinner and lighter. I get it. It's incremental improvement on the Tricorder from Star Trek. But Apple isn't making new phones every N months because "consumers don't mind" but because they want to make even more money. They have more cash than Scrooge MacDuck. And they know they can get people to hand over hundreds of dollars a pop just to track that sweet "technological progress", just like sports sneakers. I'm kind of in awe of the Apple Store. It's like a cattle call. People line up, the technician plugs in the diagnostic widget and performs the sacrament, then tells them how much money to put in the box to make the magic stone work again. Apple is beyond planned obsolesce. Not only have they installed a digital shopping mall in the purses and pockets of Jane and Joe Average, they have trained their users to return again and again to keep "fixing" their malls. Now, I wouldn't mind but for the waste! We are surrounded by waste. If you go into your kitchen and kneel down in front of the fridge and open the door you'll feel a wash of cold air pouring out. Warm air is rushing in at the top to replace it. This happens every time you open your fridge. You pay for the electricity to cool that air. Why are refrigerators built like cabinets rather than drawers? Pilot lights in heaters and stoves. Gasoline is what's left over after all the other useful things in petroleum are extracted. After all the high-grade fuel and plastic and whatnot are made, the leftover oil is treated and sent to the gas stations. Cars and trucks function, in part, as a waste disposal system for the oil industry. You can put a spark plug in your tail pipe with a switch on the dash and send twenty-foot flames shooting out of the back of your car. People used to do it for kicks. This works because the carburetor doesn't fully "atomize" the fuel: there are blobs and streamers and these do not burn completely in the engine and are flushed out in the exhaust. There are dozens of "magic" carburetors and carburetor mods that can improve your gas mileage. I collect ideas, like some people collect stamps or butterflies. It's fun, but it's also frustrating, because I started to realize that we do not live in the best of all possible worlds. There are all sorts of technologies that are completely neglected that would be so cool to have available. Light bulbs that last twenty or thirty years are nothing. The bottom line is we live in an inferior timeline largely to to venality and ignorance. "Planned obsolesce" is a real thing and a curse.

nbsd4life 8y ago

> The cartel tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that lasted more than 1,000 hours If their motivations were pure, they would set a standard for efficiency and/or brightness, or a minimum but not maximum of 1,000 hours.