6 ms·

I've gotta say I really do disagree, the reason we do business/idea/marketing is because that's what we ENJOY and are PASSIONATE about. I believe that that's wh

by lachyg 16y ago

I've gotta say I really do disagree, the reason we do business/idea/marketing is because that's what we ENJOY and are PASSIONATE about. I believe that that's what's most important, being passionate, and enjoying what you're doing. And frankly, I can only code for so long before getting bored, and losing interest. But when I'm marketing, brainstorming partnerships, and discussing potential leads with a company -- i'm in my element, and loving it. I never get tired of it.

alex_c 16y ago
I don't want to sound harsh, but that's at least in part because talk is cheap - everyone enjoys talking and brainstorming, but at some point you have to put your head down, get your hands dirty, and get through that last 10% of work that invariably takes 90% of the time. There's nothing wrong with what you enjoy doing - it's very valuable to have someone good at it - but there is a difference between a good sales/marketing guy and a good founder, just like there's a difference between a good programmer and a good founder.
- lachyg 16y ago
  So you're saying that doing hardcore marketing and biz-dev isn't 'putting your head down'? If a fantastic technical founder programs a fantastic app, but no one finds out about it, what value is it? It needs to be in the hands of users! I believe that it's just as valuable (i'm not going to say 'if not more')
  - forkandwait 16y ago
    I think true sales is 'putting your head down'; cold calling is at least as manly as debugging Ruby. But I think "biz-dev" is often, well, spinning bullshit fantasies, putting them into powerpoints with nice colors, and calling it work. Not always, but often. I guess that's why proven coders and proven commission salespeople (and proven accountants) can always find jobs, while "big picture" folks are left unemployed, wondering why companies can't see their brilliance. Or, if they're lucky, they sue Zuckerberg because he was able to do make an actual product which never got past the great-idea-over-beer phase for them. (Ducks...)
    - adw 16y ago
      What you say isn't wrong here, but it's one-eyed. Specifically, it's much more true in consumer than B2B. In B2B, biz dev is building partnerships, channels, distribution, obtaining resources you need at prices you can afford, all that good stuff. It's the absolute engine of your business. If you're writing a B2C app, doesn't matter about the platform, then what biz is there to dev? In a similar sense, you need marketers, not salesmen, because your problem is getting a call-to-action out to your potential market as effectively and efficiently as possible. You can't do that door-to-door at scale. But if you're doing enterprise software, the converse is true. You need biz dev to shape your proposition, and you need a sales force to go and hammer down doors and melt the copper in the phonelines. Different problems, different solutions, different solvers, that's all.
  - bherms 16y ago
    From someone who has interacted with a lot of investors trying to raise money and pitch a business I started with some friends, I can assure you that a lot of what people think makes a business is bullshit. We spent months and months building a business plan, doing market research, talking about our IP, our proprietary processes, etc. When talking to all the investors we met while in the Notre Dame McCloskey Business Competition, we were basically informed the business plan wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, we had no IP, and the reason investors won't sign an NDA on your idea is that an idea isn't worth shit. When I actually started building something, when we got the land needed for the other part of our business, and when we had substance (not just words); that's when they listened, offered us money, and things started to work out.
    - bherms 16y ago
      ps: for more info -- We ended up finishing 2nd out of 211 businesses (from idea stage to operational). In the finals, we had investors offering us as much as $50,000 on the spot (which was the coolest feeling). We didn't accept any money because we felt we weren't ready to, which was good because the business dematerialized due to internal struggles. The main guy was the stupid idea, no tech knowledge type and thought he ran everything and was the reason we were getting traction (when all he did was sit around thinking up dumb ideas that the rest of us refined, curated, and implemented).
  - alex_c 16y ago
    No, I believe that in an early-stage tech startup, each founder should be able to wear more than one hat, and be willing to do tasks they don't enjoy when necessary. The business founder should have some technical knowledge, and the tech founder should have some business knowledge. These aren't prerequisites for success, but they can give you a significant advantage. Edit: reading your other replies, it doesn't really sound like we're disagreeing.
joystickers 16y ago
As a technical guy who is taking care of the biz side of things in my startup, I must disagree with you lachy. I know how aggravating it is when someone shows complete disinterest in the technicalities. They lack an awareness of the challenges and think this stuff is magic. It's not. There are limitations and trade-offs. I'm learning a lot of mechanical engineering stuff from my co-founders that's critical to understanding why our product will or won't work. As far as passion is concerned, you should be passionate about the whole thing - from start to finish! I want to know the why, how, and what behind my products.
- lachyg 16y ago
  I think I conveyed my point pretty hopelessly. Don't get my wrong, I love the technical side, I think it's fascinating, I just wouldn't want that to be my full time job. I can read and understand code, I just can't write it. I love to learn bits here and there, especially front-end. I appreciate your reply, and I agree with you.
  - rokhayakebe 16y ago
    "I can read and understand code, I just can't write it". That is what I thought too before writing. Let me tell you you don't understand it, my friend. Edit: That was not a smart comment from me. Let me rephrase it. If you can read and understand it, then writing it should be less hard for you.
marknutter 16y ago
> And frankly, I can only code for so long before getting bored, and losing interest. That's because it's not all fun and games. It's hard work, and the most important part of an internet startup.
- lachyg 16y ago
  But you code because that's what you're good at, and that's what you enjoy. I do marketing/biz-dev for the same reason. Why don't you do marketing and biz-dev? I do front-end development, and I can read backend code, I just can't write it!
jfarmer 16y ago
If I had a co-founder with that attitude I'd tell him to sod off. The people at the top have to be willing to do whatever it takes, whether they're "passionate" about it or not.
- lachyg 16y ago
  I like to live doing things that I thoroughly enjoy, and I find I don't do great work if I'm not working towards something that I am really passionate about, or something that I want to really crush!

by lachyg 16y ago

alex_c 16y ago

I don't want to sound harsh, but that's at least in part because talk is cheap - everyone enjoys talking and brainstorming, but at some point you have to put your head down, get your hands dirty, and get through that last 10% of work that invariably takes 90% of the time. There's nothing wrong with what you enjoy doing - it's very valuable to have someone good at it - but there is a difference between a good sales/marketing guy and a good founder, just like there's a difference between a good programmer and a good founder.

lachyg 16y ago
So you're saying that doing hardcore marketing and biz-dev isn't 'putting your head down'? If a fantastic technical founder programs a fantastic app, but no one finds out about it, what value is it? It needs to be in the hands of users! I believe that it's just as valuable (i'm not going to say 'if not more')
- forkandwait 16y ago
  I think true sales is 'putting your head down'; cold calling is at least as manly as debugging Ruby. But I think "biz-dev" is often, well, spinning bullshit fantasies, putting them into powerpoints with nice colors, and calling it work. Not always, but often. I guess that's why proven coders and proven commission salespeople (and proven accountants) can always find jobs, while "big picture" folks are left unemployed, wondering why companies can't see their brilliance. Or, if they're lucky, they sue Zuckerberg because he was able to do make an actual product which never got past the great-idea-over-beer phase for them. (Ducks...)
  - adw 16y ago
    What you say isn't wrong here, but it's one-eyed. Specifically, it's much more true in consumer than B2B. In B2B, biz dev is building partnerships, channels, distribution, obtaining resources you need at prices you can afford, all that good stuff. It's the absolute engine of your business. If you're writing a B2C app, doesn't matter about the platform, then what biz is there to dev? In a similar sense, you need marketers, not salesmen, because your problem is getting a call-to-action out to your potential market as effectively and efficiently as possible. You can't do that door-to-door at scale. But if you're doing enterprise software, the converse is true. You need biz dev to shape your proposition, and you need a sales force to go and hammer down doors and melt the copper in the phonelines. Different problems, different solutions, different solvers, that's all.
- bherms 16y ago
  From someone who has interacted with a lot of investors trying to raise money and pitch a business I started with some friends, I can assure you that a lot of what people think makes a business is bullshit. We spent months and months building a business plan, doing market research, talking about our IP, our proprietary processes, etc. When talking to all the investors we met while in the Notre Dame McCloskey Business Competition, we were basically informed the business plan wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, we had no IP, and the reason investors won't sign an NDA on your idea is that an idea isn't worth shit. When I actually started building something, when we got the land needed for the other part of our business, and when we had substance (not just words); that's when they listened, offered us money, and things started to work out.
  - bherms 16y ago
    ps: for more info -- We ended up finishing 2nd out of 211 businesses (from idea stage to operational). In the finals, we had investors offering us as much as $50,000 on the spot (which was the coolest feeling). We didn't accept any money because we felt we weren't ready to, which was good because the business dematerialized due to internal struggles. The main guy was the stupid idea, no tech knowledge type and thought he ran everything and was the reason we were getting traction (when all he did was sit around thinking up dumb ideas that the rest of us refined, curated, and implemented).
- alex_c 16y ago
  No, I believe that in an early-stage tech startup, each founder should be able to wear more than one hat, and be willing to do tasks they don't enjoy when necessary. The business founder should have some technical knowledge, and the tech founder should have some business knowledge. These aren't prerequisites for success, but they can give you a significant advantage. Edit: reading your other replies, it doesn't really sound like we're disagreeing.

joystickers 16y ago

As a technical guy who is taking care of the biz side of things in my startup, I must disagree with you lachy. I know how aggravating it is when someone shows complete disinterest in the technicalities. They lack an awareness of the challenges and think this stuff is magic. It's not. There are limitations and trade-offs. I'm learning a lot of mechanical engineering stuff from my co-founders that's critical to understanding why our product will or won't work. As far as passion is concerned, you should be passionate about the whole thing - from start to finish! I want to know the why, how, and what behind my products.

lachyg 16y ago
I think I conveyed my point pretty hopelessly. Don't get my wrong, I love the technical side, I think it's fascinating, I just wouldn't want that to be my full time job. I can read and understand code, I just can't write it. I love to learn bits here and there, especially front-end. I appreciate your reply, and I agree with you.
- rokhayakebe 16y ago
  "I can read and understand code, I just can't write it". That is what I thought too before writing. Let me tell you you don't understand it, my friend. Edit: That was not a smart comment from me. Let me rephrase it. If you can read and understand it, then writing it should be less hard for you.

marknutter 16y ago

> And frankly, I can only code for so long before getting bored, and losing interest. That's because it's not all fun and games. It's hard work, and the most important part of an internet startup.

lachyg 16y ago
But you code because that's what you're good at, and that's what you enjoy. I do marketing/biz-dev for the same reason. Why don't you do marketing and biz-dev? I do front-end development, and I can read backend code, I just can't write it!

jfarmer 16y ago

If I had a co-founder with that attitude I'd tell him to sod off. The people at the top have to be willing to do whatever it takes, whether they're "passionate" about it or not.

lachyg 16y ago
I like to live doing things that I thoroughly enjoy, and I find I don't do great work if I'm not working towards something that I am really passionate about, or something that I want to really crush!