5 ms·

I'm typically sharply critical of the web, but I think this comparison is kind of silly. The biggest problem with Java Applets and Flash is the security issues,

I'm typically sharply critical of the web, but I think this comparison is kind of silly. The biggest problem with Java Applets and Flash is the security issues, which were largely caused by giving web pages access to a second, less secure sandbox. WASM stays in the same sandbox as the rest of the web. Flash also had the problem of being proprietary and non-standardized with only one implementation, something WASM does not suffer from. For those worried about the "all WASM" pages looking like the old "all Flash" pages of yore, consider that Flash and Java applets had their own UI stack and WASM does not. The closest WASM has to that is OpenGL, but you've been able to make all-OpenGL apps with pure JavaScript for some time and it hasn't taken over the web with terrible sites yet. WASM code can interact with the DOM. I guess we could worry about native C/C++ GUI toolkits being ported to WASM, but the web community gets what you deserve for making Electron a thing. I don't like JavaScript in general but I don't see how WASM is any worse, and if anything it's quite a bit better.

Marazan 8y ago
Flash player had a open access spec and there was more than just the Adobe Flash Player as implementations. Pretty much every AAA video game of a certain period would have been using scaleforms Flashplayer for their user interface.
- kepgf 8y ago
  Doom 3 BFG comes to my mind.
- Marazan 8y ago
  Why on earth is this being down voted?
- nostalgeek 8y ago
  > Flash player had a open access spec and there was more than just the Adobe Flash Player as implementations. No, the compiler maybe, Action Script maybe, but not the player. The player is entirely closed source and there is no open spec for the player. Or you need to show it to me. > there was more than just the Adobe Flash Player as implementations. Only Adobe's implementation could run all swf files. Scaleform was not an alternative flash player. Any attempt at creating an alternative and feature complete flash player failed. Flash the tech is not open, at all.
  - Marazan 8y ago
    The player is closed source but the SWF spec is open. https://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf.html https://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf.html
bilbo0s 8y ago
WASM has all the security problems of flash, and then it multiplies them, by making WASM content linkable. So someone makes a game, and they use this very useful WASM library over here. Only that library exploits spectre or meltdown to steal data. Or maybe it just silently hoses your machine by targeting the new WebGL shaders? Or any myriad number of other things.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  Exploiting browser bugs is still just exploiting browser bugs and this is already a problem for JavaScript, WASM doesn't make it worse. Flash introduces a second, black box sandbox implemented by morons.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    I don't think you're understanding. Let me be explicit. There are changes in WASM specifically made that render spectre and meldown mitigations useless. (ie-Browser makers put in spectre and meltdown mitigations, and changes in WASM allow WASM content to get around those mitigations.) Developers cheer the changes, because they make WASM more useful, and to be fair, browser mitigations of spectre and meltdown type bugs make WASM far less performant. But changes which render those mitigations useless are dangerous no matter what your opinion is on how useful WASM should be. Edit: Should probably mention that the upcoming changes include threading and shared memory. Implemented in a way that enables CPU side channel attacks. (Probably because there is no other way to get threading and shared memory without everything slowing to a crawl, but still.)
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      Maybe I don't understand Spectre and Meltdown, then. I wasn't aware it was the browser's business to patch that, I thought it was kernel and microcode patches?
      - bilbo0s 8y ago
        Kernel and microcode patches allow the OS to control for meltdown a bit better. The problem with Spectre is that it is a bit different. Array bounds class might be able to be patched in the long run, but even from the beginning, people have suspected that the other classes of spectre would be more slippery. And true to form, new spectre type variants continue to be discovered and disclosed by Intel even to this day. (SpectreRSB for instance.) In short, it's not a simple patch that will fix all these strains of bugs out there. In light of that fact, browser makers have implemented mitigations at the application level which are a bit more heavy handed. But, as you can imagine, this is going to impact all content inside the browser. Which brings us to the WASM content, and the threading and shared memory changes. And you know the rest of the story from there.

Marazan 8y ago

Flash player had a open access spec and there was more than just the Adobe Flash Player as implementations. Pretty much every AAA video game of a certain period would have been using scaleforms Flashplayer for their user interface.

kepgf 8y ago
Doom 3 BFG comes to my mind.
Marazan 8y ago
Why on earth is this being down voted?
nostalgeek 8y ago
> Flash player had a open access spec and there was more than just the Adobe Flash Player as implementations. No, the compiler maybe, Action Script maybe, but not the player. The player is entirely closed source and there is no open spec for the player. Or you need to show it to me. > there was more than just the Adobe Flash Player as implementations. Only Adobe's implementation could run all swf files. Scaleform was not an alternative flash player. Any attempt at creating an alternative and feature complete flash player failed. Flash the tech is not open, at all.
- Marazan 8y ago
  The player is closed source but the SWF spec is open. https://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf.html https://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf.html

bilbo0s 8y ago

WASM has all the security problems of flash, and then it multiplies them, by making WASM content linkable. So someone makes a game, and they use this very useful WASM library over here. Only that library exploits spectre or meltdown to steal data. Or maybe it just silently hoses your machine by targeting the new WebGL shaders? Or any myriad number of other things.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
Exploiting browser bugs is still just exploiting browser bugs and this is already a problem for JavaScript, WASM doesn't make it worse. Flash introduces a second, black box sandbox implemented by morons.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I don't think you're understanding. Let me be explicit. There are changes in WASM specifically made that render spectre and meldown mitigations useless. (ie-Browser makers put in spectre and meltdown mitigations, and changes in WASM allow WASM content to get around those mitigations.) Developers cheer the changes, because they make WASM more useful, and to be fair, browser mitigations of spectre and meltdown type bugs make WASM far less performant. But changes which render those mitigations useless are dangerous no matter what your opinion is on how useful WASM should be. Edit: Should probably mention that the upcoming changes include threading and shared memory. Implemented in a way that enables CPU side channel attacks. (Probably because there is no other way to get threading and shared memory without everything slowing to a crawl, but still.)
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    Maybe I don't understand Spectre and Meltdown, then. I wasn't aware it was the browser's business to patch that, I thought it was kernel and microcode patches?
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
      Kernel and microcode patches allow the OS to control for meltdown a bit better. The problem with Spectre is that it is a bit different. Array bounds class might be able to be patched in the long run, but even from the beginning, people have suspected that the other classes of spectre would be more slippery. And true to form, new spectre type variants continue to be discovered and disclosed by Intel even to this day. (SpectreRSB for instance.) In short, it's not a simple patch that will fix all these strains of bugs out there. In light of that fact, browser makers have implemented mitigations at the application level which are a bit more heavy handed. But, as you can imagine, this is going to impact all content inside the browser. Which brings us to the WASM content, and the threading and shared memory changes. And you know the rest of the story from there.