9 ms·

Founders who can't code

250 points by rokhayakebe 16y ago

An advise to founders who can't code If you are a business/idea guy and looking for a technical co founder, stop. Stop right now. Take 6 months off and go learn how to code (day and night, weekends including). Most web apps do little besides save, show and update data. No, You will NOT become an engineer, programmer, or web developer, but you will be able to put a prototype of your idea together and maybe get one or two beta users for feedback. At this moment it will be much easier to recruit a technical cofounder. The reason why most technical cofounders can create great products is not because they have a deep domain knowledge or they are great hackers. The reason is (beside passion for the problem) their cost is time. Your cost is money. They can spend one year working after hours to create a product. Can you pay someone for one year to create a product? They can fail 23 times and still find time to build their next idea. Can you convince your best friend to work on your 4th idea, when the previous 3 failed? Here is the thing, 1 year from now, you will still have plenty ideas. But are you going to have ideas and the ability to implement them (or parts of the solution), or are you going to post one of those "Revolutionary Disrupting Idea with potential to make millions. Need Someone to build. Will give 15 % of revenue". Stop and go learn. Worst case scenario, your future technical founder will respect you for trying, and you in return will truly appreciate their skills. Note 1: If your idea is to build something truly technically challenging, then scratch my advice. Note 2: Off course all the above would mean little if I wasn't the marketer/business/idea/support/whatever guy who spent the past few months learning. Email me if you are learning, maybe we can keep each other motivated.

Tichy 16y ago
I don't think the standard CRUD web app is necessarily what will make an exciting startup. That would more likely be some new twist. Also, I can feel with business types who say it doesn't make sense for them to learn coding. In a way I am in a similar situation, as I am constantly extremely hampered by my lack of design skills. Should I try to become a designer? I admit to trying now and them (decided today to go through the inkscape tutorials, bought the occasional book on design), but honestly, odds are very low that I'll be able to compete with real designers. And the graphics design takes away much needed time from coding.
- RodgerTheGreat 16y ago
  When you strip away the scalability infrastructure, isn't Twitter just a CRUD app? For some people they would seem to epitomize an "exciting startup".
  - Tichy 16y ago
    The problem is that without the scalability infrastructure, it doesn't work. Although to be fair, the Twitter people probably didn't know that in the beginning, either. So you could have built a crappy prototype, true. However, while Twitter is an exciting startup, a Twitter clone is not (anymore). Granted, you might be able to build the occasional CRUD prototype for something that could become an interesting startup. I doubt it is true for all kinds of startups, though.
Detrus 16y ago
Note 1 is pretty important. If you're non-technical how do you know if your idea is technically challenging or not? In many cases you don't, even technical people often misjudge how challenging and idea can get. If it is challenging, you get too deep into code, things take too long, get discouraged, etc.. Or settle for some gimmick that you can execute within a reasonable timeframe. It's a good theory, but it assumes that non-technical people will try ideas that are minor improvements over existing ideas, like twitter, groupon clones. But they may also read up on magic new tech and come up with ideas based on that, not knowing how hard they'll be to prototype.
gigantor 16y ago
I was working with a business partner on a startup a while back, and what really impressed me was their prototype, consisting of a 'database' of static pages, and updates done manually using the forms-to-email system. The fact that they had a functional prototype, regardless of how horrible the technical implementation was, showed me that they were serious and I'd be able to communicate technical aspects to them much easier. The takeaway is that you don't even need to learn to code to get that far, even WordPress with the right plugins can build a convincing prototype and quickly show a proof of concept to a technical developer that can take it from there.
- lachyg 16y ago
  Exactly! Idea guys are pretty good at getting mockups and stuff done, showing off the ideas. They can pitch it and make it impressive.
  - marknutter 16y ago
    Y'know, us developers are also "ideas guys" in addition to being developers.
    - lachyg 16y ago
      For sure, I guess some people are 'full-time-idea-guys' in the sense that they just develop and manage them full time.
    - moxiemk1 16y ago
      It seems like the pervailing thought is that developers are not the same as the idea guys, but I can't for the life of me understand why not. marknutter is 100% correct. I can't imagine founding a startup that had a non-developer "idea guy."
- mathewsi 16y ago
  (Hm, I remember this submission! Glad to see it being revived... Similar posts spring up all the time.) a little proof that WordPress can be used for an interesting prototype: http://www.notepeep.com http://www.notepeep.com I don't code and with a handful of plugins and a few changes to some PHP I was able to pull off a functioning prototype. I'm glad to see technical founders out there appreciating the pseudo-technical work the non-coding bunch of us do.
lachyg 16y ago
I've gotta say I really do disagree, the reason we do business/idea/marketing is because that's what we ENJOY and are PASSIONATE about. I believe that that's what's most important, being passionate, and enjoying what you're doing. And frankly, I can only code for so long before getting bored, and losing interest. But when I'm marketing, brainstorming partnerships, and discussing potential leads with a company -- i'm in my element, and loving it. I never get tired of it.
- alex_c 16y ago
  I don't want to sound harsh, but that's at least in part because talk is cheap - everyone enjoys talking and brainstorming, but at some point you have to put your head down, get your hands dirty, and get through that last 10% of work that invariably takes 90% of the time. There's nothing wrong with what you enjoy doing - it's very valuable to have someone good at it - but there is a difference between a good sales/marketing guy and a good founder, just like there's a difference between a good programmer and a good founder.
  - lachyg 16y ago
    So you're saying that doing hardcore marketing and biz-dev isn't 'putting your head down'? If a fantastic technical founder programs a fantastic app, but no one finds out about it, what value is it? It needs to be in the hands of users! I believe that it's just as valuable (i'm not going to say 'if not more')
    - forkandwait 16y ago
      I think true sales is 'putting your head down'; cold calling is at least as manly as debugging Ruby. But I think "biz-dev" is often, well, spinning bullshit fantasies, putting them into powerpoints with nice colors, and calling it work. Not always, but often. I guess that's why proven coders and proven commission salespeople (and proven accountants) can always find jobs, while "big picture" folks are left unemployed, wondering why companies can't see their brilliance. Or, if they're lucky, they sue Zuckerberg because he was able to do make an actual product which never got past the great-idea-over-beer phase for them. (Ducks...)
jsherry 16y ago
Instead of taking time off to do this, I'm doing it on the fly while my startup is up and running. I fought this fight for just about 2 years, outsourcing much of our web development during that time. And I don't regret outsourcing - it can get you up and running faster than learning, especially if you're building something that borders on complex. But in the end, we really needed to start bringing things in-house, from both the standpoints of protecting our IP as well as enabling us to become more nimble in terms of making changes on the fly etc. We haven't completely weened off outsourced web development, but I can now see a path to get there, and it all started by learning how to become more self-sufficient.
initlaunch 16y ago
Yes, as others mentioned, there are good tools to rapidly prototype things, and using them shows you are resourceful and committed. If you really can't do that, at least put in the time to create a detailed spec.
catshirt 16y ago
advice for coders who can't found: have an idea, learn to talk to people. now we can all be single founders.
malandrew 16y ago
I'm that founder learning how to code right now and I couldn't agree more with you. Been hacking away for a 1-2 months so far with a friend who is a developer. It's totally worth it.
- rokhayakebe 16y ago
  Great, Malandrew. It always helps to have someone to help you go through it. Email me sometimes, we can update each other every now and then on our progress. Cheers,
kingsidharth 16y ago
True! Usually people run around looking for co-founders and they look like people saying, "Build this for me, and hey you are a co-founder that means I don't pay you. Your time is at risk not mine." And there is no way they can get a co-fonder that way, anyways.
damoncali 16y ago
Note 3: Don't do this if, after a week, you don't like coding. You'll go insane.
derrida 16y ago
If your a hack what are you doing reading hacker news? jj :-)
jw84 16y ago
I disagree. Time is money. But which opportunity cost is greater? Do you have access to more time or do you have access to more money? If your primary skillset is in business, marketing, or sales, stick with that. Don't deviate from your specialization.
- davidcann 16y ago
  If you're applying for a job, then I agree. If you're founding a startup, then a business guy needs to be able to clearly and quickly communicate with the developer(s).
  - jw84 16y ago
    One needs to clearly and quickly communicate requirements.
    - noverloop 16y ago
      just a list of requirements doesn't cut it. There are a lot of ways to fill in requirements, a lot of bad ones and very few good ones. When you ask an author to write a 500 page roman about some dramatic lovestory you have written down in a 5 page requirement document, there are still a lot of things that will be unclear when he is writing it. When the author hits an unknown he can send you an email, make an assumption or call a meeting. 1 and 3 breaks his workflow, 2 doesn't. now speed this proces up a 100 times faster and you've got a programmer in the 'zone' with a 5 page requirement list for a fairly complex project. It won't end very well unless you have very short communication lines for the entire duration of the project (or the programmer is reading your mind)
      - Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
        Here's another idea. Instead of saying that the only way someone could possibly communicate with a developer is on the developer's terms by learning to program, why not employ developers who can communicate with non-developers? Yes it's important to create the best possible working environment for a programmer and give them the best information, but in this example the founder / CEO / visionary is actually the scarce resource and the aim should be to get him working as effectively as possible. Six months of his time to learn to program is a huge and expensive (in opportunity terms) commitment when part of that should be picked up by the programmer spending time filling in the gaps. It's not how you get the most out of the programmer that matters, it's how you get the most out of the whole team and sometimes that's going to involve individuals having to work in ways which are to them non-optimal.
shadowmatter 16y ago
Peter Theil, co-founder of Paypal, would probably disagree. In the book Founders at Work, you'll find that many co-founders of large, valuable companies claim that having another co-founder understand the business side was invaluable. (Note: I'm not trying to stick up for them because I'm a business guy; I'm a coder guy.)
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  That's true, but it's not like learning to code a little makes all your business knowledge fall out of your head. And the point of learning to code isn't that you'll now be the CTO, it's because founding a successful tech company is hard, let alone founding one when you don't know the difference between Java and Javascript. You can still be the business guy, but now you understand at least a little of the core of your business. Not to mention that if you're just a business guy with an idea and no money, few good developers will be interested.
armandososa 16y ago
I think that's inline with Derek Sivers history (as told on TechZing) http://techzinglive.com/?p=443 http://techzinglive.com/?p=443
edw519 16y ago
You will NOT become an engineer, programmer, or web developer, but you will be able to put a prototype of your idea together and maybe get one or two beta users for feedback... You will also be able to have an intelligent conversation with a developer. I get sad whenever I encounter a business person with no technical bullshit filter. Not because I'm judging them, but because if I can bullshit them, any other developer can. Which probably means there's a problem somewhere that will hurt all of us. I'll make a point to have a cursory understanding of financial statements, market segmentation, and project management if you do the same for the basic building blocks of software applications. Then the two of us will be able to talk about almost anything. OK?
- mortenjorck 16y ago
  I've been trying to learn enough Objective-C and Cocoa to be able to communicate at some level with a future co-founder (or even a contractor if I can find one within my bootstrap budget). It's slow going, though, and a first-mover just launched—the hardest question now seems to be just how much of the territory I want to be familiar with before I take the next step. But I think you have a good benchmark there: Do I know it well enough yet to have a good idea of when I'm being bullshitted?
- wpeterson 16y ago
  +1 on this. If you learn enough to do a bad job building your prototype, you will learn what you don't know. Right now you don't even know what you don't know. Also, you can't hire someone for a job you know nothing about. Doing (even a poor) job on your prototype will teach you to evaluate a technical co-founder.
  - Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
    That's one scenario. The other is you muddle through, learn a bit and do an OK job pulling together the prototype. Sure it doesn't look exactly right but you can log in, see some records, make some updates and it's all fine in demos and pitches - hell you've even stuck it on the web for friends to poke and prod. You now think it's all straight forward and you're nearly there. The whole this isn't secure, is held together with sticky tape, updates aren't transactional so when something does go wrong the data is left in a mess, it has no error handling or referential integrity and won't scale beyond half a dozen users which is all it's ever had to put up with as a prototype but you've only been coding for six months so you hardly understand that these problems even exist let alone understand what's involved in solving them. Personally I really really don't want to be the tech lead who has to then deal with someone who knows way less than they think and is being told that the thing needs to be rewritten and by doing so is not only delivering bad news but is also having to criticise the persons own personal work. Some CEOs will benefit from this sort of knowledge, others will be damaged by it - there is no simple rule.
jonbishop 16y ago
"Can you convince your best friend to work on your 4th idea, when the previous 3 failed?" Any business/idea guy worth his/her salt will have more than one great idea. This is why I am learning how to code; so I don't have to go through all the trouble to get a technical cofounder every time I come up with an idea I really like. This way I can build a prototype and be a lot more credible when I approach people to work with me.
bherms 16y ago
I wrote a blog post related to this yesterday. I agree with the author 100%. I can't remember how many times some business guy tried to pitch me on some stupid idea without an inkling of knowledge about programming or how the web works. The worst part is that they generally have no money either. If you have a good idea with some idea of how to implement it and a clear vision, you may be able to sell me. If you have a half-assed idea and are just trying to jump on the internet millions bandwagon because you think it doesn't involve real work, go to hell.
- ABrandt 16y ago
  Could you update your profile with contact information (the email address field is not public). I'd love to read the post you described. It sounds like I've recently came to the exact same conclusion, except I'm actually the business guy who used to pitch stupid ideas (ah the naivety).
  - bherms 16y ago
    Updated profile with a link to my blog. It's less of a fully thought out post and more of a rant/anecdote. Enjoy regardless :)
    - ABrandt 16y ago
      Thanks, a rant indeed. I remember seeing this blog posted somewhere a few days ago, best of luck! I can definitely relate to your "F* it, I'm just going to do it" attitude.
jbarham 16y ago
FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program (http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teaching http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teachin...) but that obviously hasn't prevented the company from being a success. But then 37signals started off as a web design firm, and he had the good fortune to hire DHH.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, so he overcame the necessity of this advice through that and the fact that the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case.
  - trustfundbaby 16y ago
    wait. what!?!?
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      Do you have a specific part of that, that you take exception with? Replies like "wait. what?!" don't actually contribute to the conversation on YC.News and are functionally, pollution. Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange. Much like your own, actually. Confer with http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In the "In Comments" section for more info if you haven't reviewed it already. Thank you.
      - trustfundbaby 16y ago
        Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange --------------------------------------------- I fail to see where that part is reflected in the guidelines. The comment basically contradicted itself enough that I felt that they actually needed to explain themselves further. But as requested I will proceed to write a small thesis on why I think their comment is wrong, if you'll permit me dear protector of hacker news.
zavulon 16y ago
I know this is a popular opinion here, but I couldn't disagree more. You're saying that it's good for everyone to try to learn to code. Far from it. Some people are just not cut out to be coders, they suck at it, they hate doing it, and they don't WANT to do it. More than half of my intro CS class was just like that, and they dropped out. If you're a non-technical founder, and have money, it's perfectly ok for you to hire a developer or a team to implement your idea (full disclosure - I run a company that does that, link in profile) instead of learning how to program yourself. Here's a very good article by Derek Sivers on steps you could take to make that happen: http://sivers.org/how2hire http://sivers.org/how2hire
- Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
  I agree. I'd almost argue that it can be a bad thing - I've lost count of the number of times I've been stitched up by someone with a small level of knowledge who extrapolated incorrectly from it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing as often as it can be useful and in 6 months that's all you're going to get (actually in six months coming from nothing you're going to know way less than most graduates and how many people consider that a decent skill level?). Good founders should bring intelligence and an ability to learn quickly to the table, they should be willing to trust the experts they hire, but I think saying that they should be able to program is a very programmer centric view and no more valid than the sales guy saying you should go sell for 6 months, or the account saying you should be a book keeper for 6 months. Sure these things are useful but it's perfectly possible to be successful without it and I'd suggest that it wouldn't be close to the best use of 6 months.
eLod 16y ago
I strongly disagree. Learn code if you are interested, but what ill advice is that you have to learn code?! Consider your advice from a designer perspective, should founders/coders learn design because "worst case scenario, your future designer partner will respect you for trying, ...". The same goes for scaling, you should stop and learn how to scale if you're a front-end developer because the reasons you gave?
speby 16y ago
I think this is a very common problem in any business. If I want to start a restaurant, and I'm a "business guy" I could maybe try to find a "chef" co-founder, which many people obviously do when they start restaurants, however if I know little to nothing about the culinary arts, food preparation, and what kind of cuisines matter to people in a specific area, my "skills" as a business person are of limited utility and give me no competitive advantage over the dozens of other restaurants in the area I'm trying to start one in. This very same pattern is the same in many other industries, not just software. But I couldn't agree more. Know your domain knowledge.
QuantumGood 16y ago
So the reason is to 1. Create a prototype, and 2. Get respect from developers. Re: #2—Let's reverse this, specifically for marketing. Developers (and pretty much anyone) who know a little marketing can be harder to work with than those that believe they don't understand it. They over-rely on cliches and stereotypes without realizing it. And what about the scenario where you end up with a person with limited technical knowledge micro-managing a tech worker? Not a good thing. Re: #1—I find creating mock-ups shows functionality more accurately and in much, much less time than creating working prototypes. I'm a business/marketing guy who loves coding. I usually avoid it because it's incredibly time-consuming to do even half-assed well, and you can re-use little of what you learn when it's just a one-off experience to creating something to show. (I realize that if you are always learning and creating things, your experience builds in more reusable ways.)
vincell1 16y ago
I disagree with the above post. Engineering offshore resources are cheap. If anything learn elements of good UI design. Design elements will cause you failure more often then coding.
gmichnikov 16y ago
I also got sick of feeling like just an ideas person, so I've been trying to follow this advice for the last 2 months. Any feedback would be much appreciated. I started with Python, using a combo of MIT OCW, Learn Python the Hard Way, and How to Think Like a Computer Scientist. I then started going through an online course on dynamic websites that touches on HTML, CSS, PHP, XML, MySQL, Ajax, and Javascript. I've been using w3schools.com and the online manuals to learn more about these. Does this make any sense? Should I try to learn more Python? If so, which resources should I use? Are these all worth my time? Am I missing anything?
- MarinaMartin 16y ago
  I'm in the same boat, a little further down the river. Also started with MIT OCW and How to Think Like a Computer Scientist (in addition to the O'Reilly Python book). Best thing for me was to escape the textbook-like examples (quadratic equations, rock paper scissors) and actually [attempt to] build real things. Once you have cursory Python knowledge, pick up "Practicel Django Projects" -- you'll build a working CMS by page 28 and feel really good about yourself. By the end of that book I was pleasantly surprised by how comfortable I was writing other programs, even if I am slow as hell and have a reference book open in my lap.
nickpinkston 16y ago
There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to understand well beyond buzzwords - Know how to keep themselves and the tech side accountable - Let the tech side concentrate on what they do best
- QuantumGood 16y ago
  So well said upvoting just isn't enough. (And as soon as I added my point, your total dropped a point. Hmm.)
- mathgladiator 16y ago
  All those things are awesome after you have a product and or money to hire. The people the comment was targeting were "idea people" who I must conclude are useless without any muscle/blood/sweat to turn an idea into a product.
  - joshklein 16y ago
    This claim is the reason so many developers work their asses off to make something, only to realize that no one wants to buy it. You do customer development before you build the product, not after. Step 1: find need, step 2: find out if people will pay $ for it, step 3: make it. "Real" business people are very good at steps 1 & 2. It's not fair to call them "idea people" if they have useful executional skills to make those things happen.
  - nickpinkston 16y ago
    The problem is the "idea people" who can't execute - definitely. I too meet more of these wanna-be's than true hustlers, but the ability to sell and raise funds is VERY helpful BEFORE you have a product. Hustlers find a way - bottom line.
- endlessvoid94 16y ago
cagenut 16y ago
Its a really fascinating tell, when programmers think that the solution to a given problem is that everyone become programmers.
shadowsun7 16y ago
This isn't accurate. Most of this is true, but not for the reasons the thread author gave in his piece. Why should a business/non-technical founder learn to code? The answer to this is simple: so that you have better ideas. Or, put another way: learning to code gives you the ability to implement your ideas. And implementing your ideas forces you to recognize, after some time, what works and what doesn't. Hackers who start their own projects tend to have a framework in their heads for figuring out which ideas are good/may work, and which ideas won't. And they know this because they've failed enough times to figure out what isn't good for a project. Whereas most business 'wantrepreneurs' I know don't have that. They don't have that because they've never implemented anything, and so how do they know if their idea's a good one or not? It's interesting to note that you don't have to learn to program to get this framework in your head. Learning to program is simply the most efficient (and cheapest!) way of doing it. Prominent counter-examples come to mind: Steve Jobs never really learned to code, but he grew up in the valley, and chose to mix around with hackers (Malcolm Gladwell, in his book Outliers points out that as a teenager Jobs approached the CEO of HP to ask for parts). So it's probably safe to assume Jobs absorbed such a framework by osmosis - spend enough time around people who make product and you begin to see for yourself what works, and what doesn't. Jason Fried has also been brought up in this HN thread. And I suspect that it's no different for him: Fried is no programmer (though he's a web designer). But he was willing to pay people to implement his ideas. He paid DHH, after all, to build Basecamp. And that's another hack - you don't need programming ability to learn the framework - in this particular case all you need is implementation (which you can pay for). And if the project fails, you learn from it. Either way you gain things to add to your internal framework. (Derek Sivers also springs to mind - he hired contract programmers to build CDBaby, if I'm not mistaken). Gaining that framework for sussing out ideas is likely to be the most important reason a non-technical founder should learn to code. Because it's going to help in so many little ways - you learn to detect technical bullshit, you gain a feel for what features to implement when and why, you attract better programming talent - because how else are you able to attract co-founders if you reek of incompetence and/or naivety?
- Pobe 16y ago
  Nop, the less you know of a system the more you can think out of it. Which is a big part of innovation.
grantlmiller 16y ago
I've been doing web marketing for about 8 years now (SEO, PR, product, SEM, viral etc) and I'm currently the CMO of a great small internet company... and I completely agree with you. Even if you're not going to strike off and start a company within the next year, you'll still be able to understand basic structure and constraints of programming. I've done this myself (with decent, yet limited success) by taking advantage of the free Harvard course offered at CS75.tv Watch the lectures (they're entertaining), do the projects and if you catch up now you can even participate & interact with the class... democratization of knowledge at its best.
ndl 16y ago
I disagree with, "Note 1: If your idea is to build something truly technically challenging, then scratch my advice." If you want to build something technically challenging, you absolutely must learn the basics of whatever field it's in. You will not make a prototype this way, but you will be able to talk to someone who can without sounding like an idiot. You should study until you can prove that your idea is "challenging" rather than infeasible. As a corollary, be weary of AI. If you are solving a problem with AI that you don't understand, assume the AI won't work. On another note, maybe the real advice should just be "pick an easier project." I have a technical background but consider myself a hybrid business/hacker going forward. My current project is highly technical; I don't think I'd consider taking on a co-founder who didn't have some tech background.
Pobe 16y ago
It's sad you can't team up with people to create a greater product while you do your business work/innovation/generalistic work/legal/accounting etc. etc. you know the stuff a business man should do. I'm in the same situation as you. Maybe you lack the business man part?
known 16y ago
If I were to start a clinic, do I need to learn medicine?
Travis 16y ago
Interesting that the threads in here actually are more vocal than I expected behind the non-tech guys. Helps that jasonfried, a prime counter-example to this post, weighed in himself. My take on it is simple: I passed this article along to my co-founder as a token of appreciation. See, he started along the way without any coding experience. He taught himself (with some pushes in the right direction) how to program, design, and even do some database stuff. He's decent at it, but that isn't necessarily what matters. What matters is now I have someone to discuss things with, someone who understands at least the basics (and has basic experience) with different design stuff. That's not only helpful for productivity, but morale as well. So, yeah, maybe learning to code isn't a requirement for a guy who can do everything nickpinkston listed. But, as the technical guy, it sure as hell makes my life better. So here's to you, jonesy!
tumpak 16y ago
Great points. Thank you. It is better to learn the task yourself, before hiring the person on that task. I believe this mantra works in most situations in a start up.
justyn 16y ago
Ughh. I really wish topics like this didn't exist. Every situation is different. I haven't touched code in 15 years, but I understand web technologies, constraints, possibilities, etc. People love our product and UI. I own the product roadmap and UI direction - have since the beginning. I write the specs, I do the wireframes, I refine UI, etc. Why would I learn to code? What impact does it have on my business? I have 10 engineers who are extraordinary. Every time I see this argument, I cringe.
cies 16y ago
I think in general it is far easier for a programmer to quite productively spend a day on web design (steal/copy), building a nice user interface, some copywriting or attracting funding; then it is for the non-programmer to spend a day on making software.
markkat 16y ago
Honestly, I can't see what the fuss is about. There are plenty of examples of successful companies with founders who could all code, or a mix, and even a couple instances where no founders could code. Do these sweeping generalizations do any good? No doubt, it helps to know at least some coding in this business, but isn't that just common sense? And even if someone disagreed with that sentiment, would they take this to heart anyway? This is one thing that bothers me about HN. There is a lot of advice here that seems to be just that. I love checking out people's work, the sharing of actual trials and tribulations, and learning about developments in the industry; but you know what they say about opinions and assholes... everybody has them.
techbelle 16y ago
cofounder learning to code! agree absolutely!
techbelle 16y ago
Thanks for posting this. As a entrepreneur I couldn't agree more with your opinion. Previously although I work in a technology field, I was pretty functional. That is, my knowledge of coding began and ended at SQL and HTML. But on the same note, years of doing custom applications with developer teams educated me on the 'lingo' and what could and could not be done (at least, not easily). Over the past year, we had many 'business' persons who offered to help out, and while that was awesome, what we really needed was qualified technical people. For a 'business' person, one can usually get an unpaid college intern and not have to sacrifice any shares in the company. Also, I think as functional person you are somewhat "over the barrel" if your developers dont perform, and can do nothing except complain. I do believe it's better overall if you can build your own product. At the end of the day, we decided to educate our own team in Ruby/Rails rather than bring in outside developers. I think this was a smart decision, and also a more cost effective solution. I definitely suggest other start ups do the same.
TWAndrews 16y ago
So what would your advice be to someone who could, once upon a time, code (COBOL, C) but hasn't written anything in ~15 years?
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
Turn it around: if you only know how to code, stop right now. Take 6 months and learn how to market/deal/plan.
SeanEClark 16y ago
I agree with this so much. Taking the time to learn, just the basics, will save you so much money. Even if you never implement the final project it will leave you in a much better place to negotiate. And if your a coder, take the time to learn about online marketing, same principals apply. Whatever other skill set you have above all learn to write, if you can write you can express yourself, you can create a business plan, write a blog and write marketing copy and grow your idea on the cheap. Sean http://seanclark.com http://seanclark.com
chipocabra 16y ago
I don't know any developers so I have to learn to code myself. I also have not business related experience so that's a double whammy. But I can generate good ideas like a mofo. While building my prototype I mostly feel like I have no idea what I'm doing but slowly and surely my site's starting to function, grow and work. Its amazing what persistence can accomplish. I realize I'll have to find a technical co-founder eventually though. I won't be able to hack together a smoothly running and awesome site on my own. I also have no idea where to look for a technical co-founder and how to approach them. Interesting times ahead.
ericsilver 16y ago
I did this as well - I quit my job, started reading Ruby books and wrote the Alpha version of Pikimal.com. I did this because I'd been the CMO at another start-up where I'd really not understood the dev process well enough and had thought that it had real costs so I have a pretty good sense of the benefits. We're pretty busy, so let me cut to the chase: The good: I'm credible to our tech folks. I understand when to slow down to integrate a library, and I'm more than willing to find time to re-factor. I learned that pair programming can be awesome, that bringing on new people slows you down, and a lot of other things that probably seem obvious to technical folks but are non-intuitive when you imagine software as assembling widgets. The bad: Ultimately, we gave up 3-5 months that we could have been hiring, fund-raising, and building software. On balance, I think that this was good for me and bad for this start-up. The ugly: As soon as I'd hired people, I think that we should have thrown out most of the code I'd written. We kept it because it worked and was fairly fast, but I'd made A LOT of newbie mistakes that have slowed things down. So, tl;dr? I'd suggest learning to code but I'm not sure that you should do it for your current start-up. At the very least launch something more sophisticated than a CRUD app and THEN get started on your small biz.

250 points by rokhayakebe 16y ago

Tichy 16y ago

I don't think the standard CRUD web app is necessarily what will make an exciting startup. That would more likely be some new twist. Also, I can feel with business types who say it doesn't make sense for them to learn coding. In a way I am in a similar situation, as I am constantly extremely hampered by my lack of design skills. Should I try to become a designer? I admit to trying now and them (decided today to go through the inkscape tutorials, bought the occasional book on design), but honestly, odds are very low that I'll be able to compete with real designers. And the graphics design takes away much needed time from coding.

RodgerTheGreat 16y ago
When you strip away the scalability infrastructure, isn't Twitter just a CRUD app? For some people they would seem to epitomize an "exciting startup".
- Tichy 16y ago
  The problem is that without the scalability infrastructure, it doesn't work. Although to be fair, the Twitter people probably didn't know that in the beginning, either. So you could have built a crappy prototype, true. However, while Twitter is an exciting startup, a Twitter clone is not (anymore). Granted, you might be able to build the occasional CRUD prototype for something that could become an interesting startup. I doubt it is true for all kinds of startups, though.

Detrus 16y ago

Note 1 is pretty important. If you're non-technical how do you know if your idea is technically challenging or not? In many cases you don't, even technical people often misjudge how challenging and idea can get. If it is challenging, you get too deep into code, things take too long, get discouraged, etc.. Or settle for some gimmick that you can execute within a reasonable timeframe. It's a good theory, but it assumes that non-technical people will try ideas that are minor improvements over existing ideas, like twitter, groupon clones. But they may also read up on magic new tech and come up with ideas based on that, not knowing how hard they'll be to prototype.

gigantor 16y ago

I was working with a business partner on a startup a while back, and what really impressed me was their prototype, consisting of a 'database' of static pages, and updates done manually using the forms-to-email system. The fact that they had a functional prototype, regardless of how horrible the technical implementation was, showed me that they were serious and I'd be able to communicate technical aspects to them much easier. The takeaway is that you don't even need to learn to code to get that far, even WordPress with the right plugins can build a convincing prototype and quickly show a proof of concept to a technical developer that can take it from there.

lachyg 16y ago
Exactly! Idea guys are pretty good at getting mockups and stuff done, showing off the ideas. They can pitch it and make it impressive.
- marknutter 16y ago
  Y'know, us developers are also "ideas guys" in addition to being developers.
  - lachyg 16y ago
    For sure, I guess some people are 'full-time-idea-guys' in the sense that they just develop and manage them full time.
  - moxiemk1 16y ago
    It seems like the pervailing thought is that developers are not the same as the idea guys, but I can't for the life of me understand why not. marknutter is 100% correct. I can't imagine founding a startup that had a non-developer "idea guy."
mathewsi 16y ago
(Hm, I remember this submission! Glad to see it being revived... Similar posts spring up all the time.) a little proof that WordPress can be used for an interesting prototype: http://www.notepeep.com http://www.notepeep.com I don't code and with a handful of plugins and a few changes to some PHP I was able to pull off a functioning prototype. I'm glad to see technical founders out there appreciating the pseudo-technical work the non-coding bunch of us do.

lachyg 16y ago

I've gotta say I really do disagree, the reason we do business/idea/marketing is because that's what we ENJOY and are PASSIONATE about. I believe that that's what's most important, being passionate, and enjoying what you're doing. And frankly, I can only code for so long before getting bored, and losing interest. But when I'm marketing, brainstorming partnerships, and discussing potential leads with a company -- i'm in my element, and loving it. I never get tired of it.

alex_c 16y ago
I don't want to sound harsh, but that's at least in part because talk is cheap - everyone enjoys talking and brainstorming, but at some point you have to put your head down, get your hands dirty, and get through that last 10% of work that invariably takes 90% of the time. There's nothing wrong with what you enjoy doing - it's very valuable to have someone good at it - but there is a difference between a good sales/marketing guy and a good founder, just like there's a difference between a good programmer and a good founder.
- lachyg 16y ago
  So you're saying that doing hardcore marketing and biz-dev isn't 'putting your head down'? If a fantastic technical founder programs a fantastic app, but no one finds out about it, what value is it? It needs to be in the hands of users! I believe that it's just as valuable (i'm not going to say 'if not more')
  - forkandwait 16y ago
    I think true sales is 'putting your head down'; cold calling is at least as manly as debugging Ruby. But I think "biz-dev" is often, well, spinning bullshit fantasies, putting them into powerpoints with nice colors, and calling it work. Not always, but often. I guess that's why proven coders and proven commission salespeople (and proven accountants) can always find jobs, while "big picture" folks are left unemployed, wondering why companies can't see their brilliance. Or, if they're lucky, they sue Zuckerberg because he was able to do make an actual product which never got past the great-idea-over-beer phase for them. (Ducks...)

jsherry 16y ago

Instead of taking time off to do this, I'm doing it on the fly while my startup is up and running. I fought this fight for just about 2 years, outsourcing much of our web development during that time. And I don't regret outsourcing - it can get you up and running faster than learning, especially if you're building something that borders on complex. But in the end, we really needed to start bringing things in-house, from both the standpoints of protecting our IP as well as enabling us to become more nimble in terms of making changes on the fly etc. We haven't completely weened off outsourced web development, but I can now see a path to get there, and it all started by learning how to become more self-sufficient.

initlaunch 16y ago

Yes, as others mentioned, there are good tools to rapidly prototype things, and using them shows you are resourceful and committed. If you really can't do that, at least put in the time to create a detailed spec.

catshirt 16y ago

advice for coders who can't found: have an idea, learn to talk to people. now we can all be single founders.

malandrew 16y ago

I'm that founder learning how to code right now and I couldn't agree more with you. Been hacking away for a 1-2 months so far with a friend who is a developer. It's totally worth it.

rokhayakebe 16y ago
Great, Malandrew. It always helps to have someone to help you go through it. Email me sometimes, we can update each other every now and then on our progress. Cheers,

kingsidharth 16y ago

True! Usually people run around looking for co-founders and they look like people saying, "Build this for me, and hey you are a co-founder that means I don't pay you. Your time is at risk not mine." And there is no way they can get a co-fonder that way, anyways.

damoncali 16y ago

Note 3: Don't do this if, after a week, you don't like coding. You'll go insane.

derrida 16y ago

If your a hack what are you doing reading hacker news? jj :-)

jw84 16y ago

I disagree. Time is money. But which opportunity cost is greater? Do you have access to more time or do you have access to more money? If your primary skillset is in business, marketing, or sales, stick with that. Don't deviate from your specialization.

davidcann 16y ago
If you're applying for a job, then I agree. If you're founding a startup, then a business guy needs to be able to clearly and quickly communicate with the developer(s).
- jw84 16y ago
  One needs to clearly and quickly communicate requirements.
  - noverloop 16y ago
    just a list of requirements doesn't cut it. There are a lot of ways to fill in requirements, a lot of bad ones and very few good ones. When you ask an author to write a 500 page roman about some dramatic lovestory you have written down in a 5 page requirement document, there are still a lot of things that will be unclear when he is writing it. When the author hits an unknown he can send you an email, make an assumption or call a meeting. 1 and 3 breaks his workflow, 2 doesn't. now speed this proces up a 100 times faster and you've got a programmer in the 'zone' with a 5 page requirement list for a fairly complex project. It won't end very well unless you have very short communication lines for the entire duration of the project (or the programmer is reading your mind)
    - Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
      Here's another idea. Instead of saying that the only way someone could possibly communicate with a developer is on the developer's terms by learning to program, why not employ developers who can communicate with non-developers? Yes it's important to create the best possible working environment for a programmer and give them the best information, but in this example the founder / CEO / visionary is actually the scarce resource and the aim should be to get him working as effectively as possible. Six months of his time to learn to program is a huge and expensive (in opportunity terms) commitment when part of that should be picked up by the programmer spending time filling in the gaps. It's not how you get the most out of the programmer that matters, it's how you get the most out of the whole team and sometimes that's going to involve individuals having to work in ways which are to them non-optimal.

shadowmatter 16y ago

Peter Theil, co-founder of Paypal, would probably disagree. In the book Founders at Work, you'll find that many co-founders of large, valuable companies claim that having another co-founder understand the business side was invaluable. (Note: I'm not trying to stick up for them because I'm a business guy; I'm a coder guy.)

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
That's true, but it's not like learning to code a little makes all your business knowledge fall out of your head. And the point of learning to code isn't that you'll now be the CTO, it's because founding a successful tech company is hard, let alone founding one when you don't know the difference between Java and Javascript. You can still be the business guy, but now you understand at least a little of the core of your business. Not to mention that if you're just a business guy with an idea and no money, few good developers will be interested.

armandososa 16y ago

I think that's inline with Derek Sivers history (as told on TechZing) http://techzinglive.com/?p=443 http://techzinglive.com/?p=443

edw519 16y ago

You will NOT become an engineer, programmer, or web developer, but you will be able to put a prototype of your idea together and maybe get one or two beta users for feedback... You will also be able to have an intelligent conversation with a developer. I get sad whenever I encounter a business person with no technical bullshit filter. Not because I'm judging them, but because if I can bullshit them, any other developer can. Which probably means there's a problem somewhere that will hurt all of us. I'll make a point to have a cursory understanding of financial statements, market segmentation, and project management if you do the same for the basic building blocks of software applications. Then the two of us will be able to talk about almost anything. OK?

mortenjorck 16y ago
I've been trying to learn enough Objective-C and Cocoa to be able to communicate at some level with a future co-founder (or even a contractor if I can find one within my bootstrap budget). It's slow going, though, and a first-mover just launched—the hardest question now seems to be just how much of the territory I want to be familiar with before I take the next step. But I think you have a good benchmark there: Do I know it well enough yet to have a good idea of when I'm being bullshitted?
wpeterson 16y ago
+1 on this. If you learn enough to do a bad job building your prototype, you will learn what you don't know. Right now you don't even know what you don't know. Also, you can't hire someone for a job you know nothing about. Doing (even a poor) job on your prototype will teach you to evaluate a technical co-founder.
- Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
  That's one scenario. The other is you muddle through, learn a bit and do an OK job pulling together the prototype. Sure it doesn't look exactly right but you can log in, see some records, make some updates and it's all fine in demos and pitches - hell you've even stuck it on the web for friends to poke and prod. You now think it's all straight forward and you're nearly there. The whole this isn't secure, is held together with sticky tape, updates aren't transactional so when something does go wrong the data is left in a mess, it has no error handling or referential integrity and won't scale beyond half a dozen users which is all it's ever had to put up with as a prototype but you've only been coding for six months so you hardly understand that these problems even exist let alone understand what's involved in solving them. Personally I really really don't want to be the tech lead who has to then deal with someone who knows way less than they think and is being told that the thing needs to be rewritten and by doing so is not only delivering bad news but is also having to criticise the persons own personal work. Some CEOs will benefit from this sort of knowledge, others will be damaged by it - there is no simple rule.

jonbishop 16y ago

"Can you convince your best friend to work on your 4th idea, when the previous 3 failed?" Any business/idea guy worth his/her salt will have more than one great idea. This is why I am learning how to code; so I don't have to go through all the trouble to get a technical cofounder every time I come up with an idea I really like. This way I can build a prototype and be a lot more credible when I approach people to work with me.

bherms 16y ago

I wrote a blog post related to this yesterday. I agree with the author 100%. I can't remember how many times some business guy tried to pitch me on some stupid idea without an inkling of knowledge about programming or how the web works. The worst part is that they generally have no money either. If you have a good idea with some idea of how to implement it and a clear vision, you may be able to sell me. If you have a half-assed idea and are just trying to jump on the internet millions bandwagon because you think it doesn't involve real work, go to hell.

ABrandt 16y ago
Could you update your profile with contact information (the email address field is not public). I'd love to read the post you described. It sounds like I've recently came to the exact same conclusion, except I'm actually the business guy who used to pitch stupid ideas (ah the naivety).
- bherms 16y ago
  Updated profile with a link to my blog. It's less of a fully thought out post and more of a rant/anecdote. Enjoy regardless :)
  - ABrandt 16y ago
    Thanks, a rant indeed. I remember seeing this blog posted somewhere a few days ago, best of luck! I can definitely relate to your "F* it, I'm just going to do it" attitude.

jbarham 16y ago

FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program (http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teaching http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teachin...) but that obviously hasn't prevented the company from being a success. But then 37signals started off as a web design firm, and he had the good fortune to hire DHH.

alnayyir 16y ago
I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, so he overcame the necessity of this advice through that and the fact that the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case.
- trustfundbaby 16y ago
  wait. what!?!?
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    Do you have a specific part of that, that you take exception with? Replies like "wait. what?!" don't actually contribute to the conversation on YC.News and are functionally, pollution. Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange. Much like your own, actually. Confer with http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In the "In Comments" section for more info if you haven't reviewed it already. Thank you.
    - trustfundbaby 16y ago
      Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange --------------------------------------------- I fail to see where that part is reflected in the guidelines. The comment basically contradicted itself enough that I felt that they actually needed to explain themselves further. But as requested I will proceed to write a small thesis on why I think their comment is wrong, if you'll permit me dear protector of hacker news.

zavulon 16y ago

I know this is a popular opinion here, but I couldn't disagree more. You're saying that it's good for everyone to try to learn to code. Far from it. Some people are just not cut out to be coders, they suck at it, they hate doing it, and they don't WANT to do it. More than half of my intro CS class was just like that, and they dropped out. If you're a non-technical founder, and have money, it's perfectly ok for you to hire a developer or a team to implement your idea (full disclosure - I run a company that does that, link in profile) instead of learning how to program yourself. Here's a very good article by Derek Sivers on steps you could take to make that happen: http://sivers.org/how2hire http://sivers.org/how2hire

Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
I agree. I'd almost argue that it can be a bad thing - I've lost count of the number of times I've been stitched up by someone with a small level of knowledge who extrapolated incorrectly from it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing as often as it can be useful and in 6 months that's all you're going to get (actually in six months coming from nothing you're going to know way less than most graduates and how many people consider that a decent skill level?). Good founders should bring intelligence and an ability to learn quickly to the table, they should be willing to trust the experts they hire, but I think saying that they should be able to program is a very programmer centric view and no more valid than the sales guy saying you should go sell for 6 months, or the account saying you should be a book keeper for 6 months. Sure these things are useful but it's perfectly possible to be successful without it and I'd suggest that it wouldn't be close to the best use of 6 months.

eLod 16y ago

I strongly disagree. Learn code if you are interested, but what ill advice is that you have to learn code?! Consider your advice from a designer perspective, should founders/coders learn design because "worst case scenario, your future designer partner will respect you for trying, ...". The same goes for scaling, you should stop and learn how to scale if you're a front-end developer because the reasons you gave?

speby 16y ago

I think this is a very common problem in any business. If I want to start a restaurant, and I'm a "business guy" I could maybe try to find a "chef" co-founder, which many people obviously do when they start restaurants, however if I know little to nothing about the culinary arts, food preparation, and what kind of cuisines matter to people in a specific area, my "skills" as a business person are of limited utility and give me no competitive advantage over the dozens of other restaurants in the area I'm trying to start one in. This very same pattern is the same in many other industries, not just software. But I couldn't agree more. Know your domain knowledge.

QuantumGood 16y ago

So the reason is to 1. Create a prototype, and 2. Get respect from developers. Re: #2—Let's reverse this, specifically for marketing. Developers (and pretty much anyone) who know a little marketing can be harder to work with than those that believe they don't understand it. They over-rely on cliches and stereotypes without realizing it. And what about the scenario where you end up with a person with limited technical knowledge micro-managing a tech worker? Not a good thing. Re: #1—I find creating mock-ups shows functionality more accurately and in much, much less time than creating working prototypes. I'm a business/marketing guy who loves coding. I usually avoid it because it's incredibly time-consuming to do even half-assed well, and you can re-use little of what you learn when it's just a one-off experience to creating something to show. (I realize that if you are always learning and creating things, your experience builds in more reusable ways.)

vincell1 16y ago

I disagree with the above post. Engineering offshore resources are cheap. If anything learn elements of good UI design. Design elements will cause you failure more often then coding.

gmichnikov 16y ago

I also got sick of feeling like just an ideas person, so I've been trying to follow this advice for the last 2 months. Any feedback would be much appreciated. I started with Python, using a combo of MIT OCW, Learn Python the Hard Way, and How to Think Like a Computer Scientist. I then started going through an online course on dynamic websites that touches on HTML, CSS, PHP, XML, MySQL, Ajax, and Javascript. I've been using w3schools.com and the online manuals to learn more about these. Does this make any sense? Should I try to learn more Python? If so, which resources should I use? Are these all worth my time? Am I missing anything?

MarinaMartin 16y ago
I'm in the same boat, a little further down the river. Also started with MIT OCW and How to Think Like a Computer Scientist (in addition to the O'Reilly Python book). Best thing for me was to escape the textbook-like examples (quadratic equations, rock paper scissors) and actually [attempt to] build real things. Once you have cursory Python knowledge, pick up "Practicel Django Projects" -- you'll build a working CMS by page 28 and feel really good about yourself. By the end of that book I was pleasantly surprised by how comfortable I was writing other programs, even if I am slow as hell and have a reference book open in my lap.

nickpinkston 16y ago

There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to understand well beyond buzzwords - Know how to keep themselves and the tech side accountable - Let the tech side concentrate on what they do best

QuantumGood 16y ago
So well said upvoting just isn't enough. (And as soon as I added my point, your total dropped a point. Hmm.)
mathgladiator 16y ago
All those things are awesome after you have a product and or money to hire. The people the comment was targeting were "idea people" who I must conclude are useless without any muscle/blood/sweat to turn an idea into a product.
- joshklein 16y ago
  This claim is the reason so many developers work their asses off to make something, only to realize that no one wants to buy it. You do customer development before you build the product, not after. Step 1: find need, step 2: find out if people will pay $ for it, step 3: make it. "Real" business people are very good at steps 1 & 2. It's not fair to call them "idea people" if they have useful executional skills to make those things happen.
- nickpinkston 16y ago
  The problem is the "idea people" who can't execute - definitely. I too meet more of these wanna-be's than true hustlers, but the ability to sell and raise funds is VERY helpful BEFORE you have a product. Hustlers find a way - bottom line.
endlessvoid94 16y ago

cagenut 16y ago

Its a really fascinating tell, when programmers think that the solution to a given problem is that everyone become programmers.

shadowsun7 16y ago

This isn't accurate. Most of this is true, but not for the reasons the thread author gave in his piece. Why should a business/non-technical founder learn to code? The answer to this is simple: so that you have better ideas. Or, put another way: learning to code gives you the ability to implement your ideas. And implementing your ideas forces you to recognize, after some time, what works and what doesn't. Hackers who start their own projects tend to have a framework in their heads for figuring out which ideas are good/may work, and which ideas won't. And they know this because they've failed enough times to figure out what isn't good for a project. Whereas most business 'wantrepreneurs' I know don't have that. They don't have that because they've never implemented anything, and so how do they know if their idea's a good one or not? It's interesting to note that you don't have to learn to program to get this framework in your head. Learning to program is simply the most efficient (and cheapest!) way of doing it. Prominent counter-examples come to mind: Steve Jobs never really learned to code, but he grew up in the valley, and chose to mix around with hackers (Malcolm Gladwell, in his book Outliers points out that as a teenager Jobs approached the CEO of HP to ask for parts). So it's probably safe to assume Jobs absorbed such a framework by osmosis - spend enough time around people who make product and you begin to see for yourself what works, and what doesn't. Jason Fried has also been brought up in this HN thread. And I suspect that it's no different for him: Fried is no programmer (though he's a web designer). But he was willing to pay people to implement his ideas. He paid DHH, after all, to build Basecamp. And that's another hack - you don't need programming ability to learn the framework - in this particular case all you need is implementation (which you can pay for). And if the project fails, you learn from it. Either way you gain things to add to your internal framework. (Derek Sivers also springs to mind - he hired contract programmers to build CDBaby, if I'm not mistaken). Gaining that framework for sussing out ideas is likely to be the most important reason a non-technical founder should learn to code. Because it's going to help in so many little ways - you learn to detect technical bullshit, you gain a feel for what features to implement when and why, you attract better programming talent - because how else are you able to attract co-founders if you reek of incompetence and/or naivety?

Pobe 16y ago
Nop, the less you know of a system the more you can think out of it. Which is a big part of innovation.

grantlmiller 16y ago

I've been doing web marketing for about 8 years now (SEO, PR, product, SEM, viral etc) and I'm currently the CMO of a great small internet company... and I completely agree with you. Even if you're not going to strike off and start a company within the next year, you'll still be able to understand basic structure and constraints of programming. I've done this myself (with decent, yet limited success) by taking advantage of the free Harvard course offered at CS75.tv Watch the lectures (they're entertaining), do the projects and if you catch up now you can even participate & interact with the class... democratization of knowledge at its best.

ndl 16y ago

I disagree with, "Note 1: If your idea is to build something truly technically challenging, then scratch my advice." If you want to build something technically challenging, you absolutely must learn the basics of whatever field it's in. You will not make a prototype this way, but you will be able to talk to someone who can without sounding like an idiot. You should study until you can prove that your idea is "challenging" rather than infeasible. As a corollary, be weary of AI. If you are solving a problem with AI that you don't understand, assume the AI won't work. On another note, maybe the real advice should just be "pick an easier project." I have a technical background but consider myself a hybrid business/hacker going forward. My current project is highly technical; I don't think I'd consider taking on a co-founder who didn't have some tech background.

Pobe 16y ago

It's sad you can't team up with people to create a greater product while you do your business work/innovation/generalistic work/legal/accounting etc. etc. you know the stuff a business man should do. I'm in the same situation as you. Maybe you lack the business man part?

known 16y ago

If I were to start a clinic, do I need to learn medicine?

Travis 16y ago

Interesting that the threads in here actually are more vocal than I expected behind the non-tech guys. Helps that jasonfried, a prime counter-example to this post, weighed in himself. My take on it is simple: I passed this article along to my co-founder as a token of appreciation. See, he started along the way without any coding experience. He taught himself (with some pushes in the right direction) how to program, design, and even do some database stuff. He's decent at it, but that isn't necessarily what matters. What matters is now I have someone to discuss things with, someone who understands at least the basics (and has basic experience) with different design stuff. That's not only helpful for productivity, but morale as well. So, yeah, maybe learning to code isn't a requirement for a guy who can do everything nickpinkston listed. But, as the technical guy, it sure as hell makes my life better. So here's to you, jonesy!

tumpak 16y ago

Great points. Thank you. It is better to learn the task yourself, before hiring the person on that task. I believe this mantra works in most situations in a start up.

justyn 16y ago

Ughh. I really wish topics like this didn't exist. Every situation is different. I haven't touched code in 15 years, but I understand web technologies, constraints, possibilities, etc. People love our product and UI. I own the product roadmap and UI direction - have since the beginning. I write the specs, I do the wireframes, I refine UI, etc. Why would I learn to code? What impact does it have on my business? I have 10 engineers who are extraordinary. Every time I see this argument, I cringe.

cies 16y ago

I think in general it is far easier for a programmer to quite productively spend a day on web design (steal/copy), building a nice user interface, some copywriting or attracting funding; then it is for the non-programmer to spend a day on making software.

markkat 16y ago

Honestly, I can't see what the fuss is about. There are plenty of examples of successful companies with founders who could all code, or a mix, and even a couple instances where no founders could code. Do these sweeping generalizations do any good? No doubt, it helps to know at least some coding in this business, but isn't that just common sense? And even if someone disagreed with that sentiment, would they take this to heart anyway? This is one thing that bothers me about HN. There is a lot of advice here that seems to be just that. I love checking out people's work, the sharing of actual trials and tribulations, and learning about developments in the industry; but you know what they say about opinions and assholes... everybody has them.

techbelle 16y ago

cofounder learning to code! agree absolutely!

techbelle 16y ago

Thanks for posting this. As a entrepreneur I couldn't agree more with your opinion. Previously although I work in a technology field, I was pretty functional. That is, my knowledge of coding began and ended at SQL and HTML. But on the same note, years of doing custom applications with developer teams educated me on the 'lingo' and what could and could not be done (at least, not easily). Over the past year, we had many 'business' persons who offered to help out, and while that was awesome, what we really needed was qualified technical people. For a 'business' person, one can usually get an unpaid college intern and not have to sacrifice any shares in the company. Also, I think as functional person you are somewhat "over the barrel" if your developers dont perform, and can do nothing except complain. I do believe it's better overall if you can build your own product. At the end of the day, we decided to educate our own team in Ruby/Rails rather than bring in outside developers. I think this was a smart decision, and also a more cost effective solution. I definitely suggest other start ups do the same.

TWAndrews 16y ago

So what would your advice be to someone who could, once upon a time, code (COBOL, C) but hasn't written anything in ~15 years?

JoeAltmaier 16y ago

Turn it around: if you only know how to code, stop right now. Take 6 months and learn how to market/deal/plan.

SeanEClark 16y ago

I agree with this so much. Taking the time to learn, just the basics, will save you so much money. Even if you never implement the final project it will leave you in a much better place to negotiate. And if your a coder, take the time to learn about online marketing, same principals apply. Whatever other skill set you have above all learn to write, if you can write you can express yourself, you can create a business plan, write a blog and write marketing copy and grow your idea on the cheap. Sean http://seanclark.com http://seanclark.com

chipocabra 16y ago

I don't know any developers so I have to learn to code myself. I also have not business related experience so that's a double whammy. But I can generate good ideas like a mofo. While building my prototype I mostly feel like I have no idea what I'm doing but slowly and surely my site's starting to function, grow and work. Its amazing what persistence can accomplish. I realize I'll have to find a technical co-founder eventually though. I won't be able to hack together a smoothly running and awesome site on my own. I also have no idea where to look for a technical co-founder and how to approach them. Interesting times ahead.

ericsilver 16y ago

I did this as well - I quit my job, started reading Ruby books and wrote the Alpha version of Pikimal.com. I did this because I'd been the CMO at another start-up where I'd really not understood the dev process well enough and had thought that it had real costs so I have a pretty good sense of the benefits. We're pretty busy, so let me cut to the chase: The good: I'm credible to our tech folks. I understand when to slow down to integrate a library, and I'm more than willing to find time to re-factor. I learned that pair programming can be awesome, that bringing on new people slows you down, and a lot of other things that probably seem obvious to technical folks but are non-intuitive when you imagine software as assembling widgets. The bad: Ultimately, we gave up 3-5 months that we could have been hiring, fund-raising, and building software. On balance, I think that this was good for me and bad for this start-up. The ugly: As soon as I'd hired people, I think that we should have thrown out most of the code I'd written. We kept it because it worked and was fairly fast, but I'd made A LOT of newbie mistakes that have slowed things down. So, tl;dr? I'd suggest learning to code but I'm not sure that you should do it for your current start-up. At the very least launch something more sophisticated than a CRUD app and THEN get started on your small biz.