4 ms·

I see all those hypotheses but are those verifiable? Did they result in some solid explanations that allowed useful predictions to be made? Or do they play "my

I see all those hypotheses but are those verifiable? Did they result in some solid explanations that allowed useful predictions to be made? Or do they play "my idea is better" game? (edit: yeah, silently downvote people asking questions... people shouldn't ask things. Or is it some sore I stepped on unknowingly?)

__jal 8y ago
Think of them more as a variation of literary criticism. I can't prove with p<.05 that my review of _Schoolhouse Rock_ is 'correct', either.
- sovok_x 8y ago
  But can't you verify a good theory of RPG by creating a novel game that will be much appreciated or fixing some existing games making them more interesting? Like how music theory improved musicians' work and resulted in a better music, musician communication and even got used for creative AIs while music is very subjective too?
  - deleted 8y ago
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  - whatshisface 8y ago
    "Literary theory," as it is called, is actually not theory. It's the production of commentaries that are designed to make you say, "ah, yes." In other words it's a derivative art form like collage or remixing. You can tell the difference because there is no way to tell if a paper is right or not other than by deciding if it sounds right to you, which is no less subjective than anything else in art. In contrast, music theory is put to the test every day when musicians become successful with its help, and scientific theories are, well, you already know.
    - deleted 8y ago
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    - forapurpose 8y ago
      > You can tell the difference because there is no way to tell if a paper is right or not other than by deciding if it sounds right to you, which is no less subjective than anything else in art. It's true that there is no way to logically prove the value of a work of art (and who says art has or needs "value"?), but lack of proof doesn't mean something doesn't exit; it means it's harder to think about. There is no proof what will happen tomorrow, but we make judgments without it, as we do about most things: Should I take this job? Should I marry this person? Do they love me? Do I love them? Should I ask out the new neighbor? Ubuntu or Fedora? There's no algorithm to understanding art; there are tools, but there is no certainty. Without a logic map, it can be very challenging - in the best way, IMHO, because it brings forth and develops my deepest thinking and compels me to challenge myself and my perspective. I can't prove a Miro is better than your neighbor's kid's drawing ... and I guess I don't really care to; I'm going to study the Miro.
danielvf 8y ago
This is a great question! So Ron Edwards, who came up with the GNS system, realized that the there were lots of games about winning, and lots of games about simulations, but very few games about drama/stories. He published his ideas wide and far on the internet, made some games, and ran a very influential forum, "the forge". Along with a later spin off forum, story-games.com, a new breed of game designers showed up that focused much more on narratives and the dramatic moment. Some examples of these cult story games are The Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard, FIASCO, Apocalypse World, Mouse Guard, and Dungeon World. These started out fairly hardcore, with but had narrative elements built into the mechanics the game instead of an afterthought. As time went on, and with lots of experimentation, people found out just how the light you could go on the rules and keep the focus on the mechanics that drive the story. The much praised D&D 5th edition, that renewed the hobby and got kids back into it, brings in many of the elements honed out in the cult fringe of story games. So yeah, I think at least the GNS theory has had a major effect on the RPG gaming world. -- If you want to get a taste of these games, take a look at the Apocalypse World. Here's an example of a "move", that a player can do to bring the dice into a story: "DO SOMETHING UNDER FIRE When you do something under fire, or dig in to endure fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, you do it. On a 7–9, you finch, hesitate, or stall: the MC can offer you a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice. On a miss, be prepared for the worst." Essentially the rules prioritize putting interesting people in bad situations and seeing them make hard choices. It's the distilled essence of drama. The player rule book is here: http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorldBasicRefbook2ndEd.pdf http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorldBasicRefbook2ndEd.... I'd recommend going about halfway in first and read the "basic moves", then scroll up to 1/3 of the way in, and read a character's sheet.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  Also, incidentally, there's a small group of mainstream RPG fans who get absolutely furious about anything resembling GNS or story games, for no reason I've ever been able to determine. (But then Ron Edwards infamously said that traditional/D&D-style RPGs literally cause brain damage, so I suppose there's a lot of defensiveness to go around...)
  - 8y ago
sampo 8y ago
> I see all those hypotheses but are those verifiable? They are not scientific theories. They are akin to the schools of thought in literary theory, and film theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_theory#Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_theory#Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_theory#Specific_theories_of_film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_theory#Specific_theories_...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
dang 8y ago
> (edit: yeah, silently downvote people asking questions... Would you please not break the site guidelines like this? Unfair downvotes suck, but for a comment like this it's almost always the case that users will give corrective upvotes, which leaves the complaint not only against the rules but factually wrong. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
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131012 8y ago
The closest thing I got to "make useful predictions" by using rpg theories is to maximize enjoyment of the game by different types of player. By reading the definition of theory, this is a slightly inappropriate use as the goal is not so much to explain why people are having a blast as to make them having a blast. Maybe we start speaking about game engineering instead?

__jal 8y ago

Think of them more as a variation of literary criticism. I can't prove with p<.05 that my review of _Schoolhouse Rock_ is 'correct', either.

sovok_x 8y ago
But can't you verify a good theory of RPG by creating a novel game that will be much appreciated or fixing some existing games making them more interesting? Like how music theory improved musicians' work and resulted in a better music, musician communication and even got used for creative AIs while music is very subjective too?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- whatshisface 8y ago
  "Literary theory," as it is called, is actually not theory. It's the production of commentaries that are designed to make you say, "ah, yes." In other words it's a derivative art form like collage or remixing. You can tell the difference because there is no way to tell if a paper is right or not other than by deciding if it sounds right to you, which is no less subjective than anything else in art. In contrast, music theory is put to the test every day when musicians become successful with its help, and scientific theories are, well, you already know.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > You can tell the difference because there is no way to tell if a paper is right or not other than by deciding if it sounds right to you, which is no less subjective than anything else in art. It's true that there is no way to logically prove the value of a work of art (and who says art has or needs "value"?), but lack of proof doesn't mean something doesn't exit; it means it's harder to think about. There is no proof what will happen tomorrow, but we make judgments without it, as we do about most things: Should I take this job? Should I marry this person? Do they love me? Do I love them? Should I ask out the new neighbor? Ubuntu or Fedora? There's no algorithm to understanding art; there are tools, but there is no certainty. Without a logic map, it can be very challenging - in the best way, IMHO, because it brings forth and develops my deepest thinking and compels me to challenge myself and my perspective. I can't prove a Miro is better than your neighbor's kid's drawing ... and I guess I don't really care to; I'm going to study the Miro.

danielvf 8y ago

This is a great question! So Ron Edwards, who came up with the GNS system, realized that the there were lots of games about winning, and lots of games about simulations, but very few games about drama/stories. He published his ideas wide and far on the internet, made some games, and ran a very influential forum, "the forge". Along with a later spin off forum, story-games.com, a new breed of game designers showed up that focused much more on narratives and the dramatic moment. Some examples of these cult story games are The Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard, FIASCO, Apocalypse World, Mouse Guard, and Dungeon World. These started out fairly hardcore, with but had narrative elements built into the mechanics the game instead of an afterthought. As time went on, and with lots of experimentation, people found out just how the light you could go on the rules and keep the focus on the mechanics that drive the story. The much praised D&D 5th edition, that renewed the hobby and got kids back into it, brings in many of the elements honed out in the cult fringe of story games. So yeah, I think at least the GNS theory has had a major effect on the RPG gaming world. -- If you want to get a taste of these games, take a look at the Apocalypse World. Here's an example of a "move", that a player can do to bring the dice into a story: "DO SOMETHING UNDER FIRE When you do something under fire, or dig in to endure fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, you do it. On a 7–9, you finch, hesitate, or stall: the MC can offer you a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice. On a miss, be prepared for the worst." Essentially the rules prioritize putting interesting people in bad situations and seeing them make hard choices. It's the distilled essence of drama. The player rule book is here: http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorldBasicRefbook2ndEd.pdf http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorldBasicRefbook2ndEd.... I'd recommend going about halfway in first and read the "basic moves", then scroll up to 1/3 of the way in, and read a character's sheet.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
Also, incidentally, there's a small group of mainstream RPG fans who get absolutely furious about anything resembling GNS or story games, for no reason I've ever been able to determine. (But then Ron Edwards infamously said that traditional/D&D-style RPGs literally cause brain damage, so I suppose there's a lot of defensiveness to go around...)
- 8y ago

sampo 8y ago

> I see all those hypotheses but are those verifiable? They are not scientific theories. They are akin to the schools of thought in literary theory, and film theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_theory#Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_theory#Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_theory#Specific_theories_of_film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_theory#Specific_theories_...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

dang 8y ago

> (edit: yeah, silently downvote people asking questions... Would you please not break the site guidelines like this? Unfair downvotes suck, but for a comment like this it's almost always the case that users will give corrective upvotes, which leaves the complaint not only against the rules but factually wrong. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

131012 8y ago

The closest thing I got to "make useful predictions" by using rpg theories is to maximize enjoyment of the game by different types of player. By reading the definition of theory, this is a slightly inappropriate use as the goal is not so much to explain why people are having a blast as to make them having a blast. Maybe we start speaking about game engineering instead?