9 ms·

New Evidence USCIS Policies Increased Denials Of H-1B Visas

67 points by seshagiric 8y ago

e9 8y ago
India has more applicants than all other countries combined times 2.5 I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are fraud and legitimately rejected https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2007-2017-trend-tables.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
- User23 8y ago
  Having worked with H-1B "principal engineers" who can't write a bash script, I'm thinking yes, this is true.
  - bumblebritches5 8y ago
    Is your company hiring? Edit: Americans, I mean.
  - __sr__ 8y ago
    People who work primarily on Windows have trouble writing bash scripts. That’s not exactly surprising.
    - User23 8y ago
      This was at a Linux shop.
      - __sr__ 8y ago
        That was meant as a joke. While I agree that there are many incompetent people who have abused H1B and other such systems, I prefer to judge people on their individual merits and avoid stereotyping. I have worked with both the extremes. See my longer response to the OP
        User23 8y ago
        I've never worked with a native employee with this particular defect for any appreciable length of time. They always get let go. The H-1Bs however, in my experience, don't. Why might that be?
        __sr__ 8y ago
        > The H-1Bs however, in my experience, don't. Why might that be? That is strange. In my experience, H1Bs are let go as quickly as natives if they are not competent. Of course, it could simply be a matter of the type of companies we have worked with. Again, see my (longer) response to the OP. I have mostly worked with Type 1 people I described there and have been fortunate enough to mostly avoid the Type 2. That said, I’ve worked with both extremes. EDIT: When I say I’ve worked with both the extremes, I mean I have worked with both highly skilled and totally incompetent foreigners as well as natives. EDIT 2: I’ve also worked with a third category — highly intelligent people (PhD level) who are more interested in spreading their intelligence (i.e. showing off) than getting actual work done. Unfortunately, I haven’t met the other extreme in this case. :-)
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        mavelikara 8y ago
        > I've never worked with a native employee with this particular defect for any appreciable length of time Spending an evening reading stories reported at thedailywtf.com will help dispel this.
        kamaal 8y ago
        >>The H-1Bs however, in my experience, don't. Why might that be? When given the opportunity, the learn and perform. Also they work for whatever salary you offer, do not complain, do overtime and weekends whenever demand and most importantly do not complain. Learning to write bash scripts isn't that hard. Finding people grateful enough for the opportunity offered, who work to make you and them win is hard.
  - HNNewer 8y ago
    this. I've worked with C++ "senior" engineers who weren't understanding compiler errors because they've written 2 main() [!!!] functions in code
    - __sr__ 8y ago
      So how exactly were they doing their job? Didn’t their manager have anything to say about the non-delivery of the project?
      - HNNewer 8y ago
        in fact, after that huge error and many other related to his code, he didn't get any contract renewal and was kicked out. I don't blame him because of his roots, but I've seen a common pattern in faking skills so much that they get a job, but failing after a short period, discovering the reality
GauntletWizard 8y ago
Somehow, I don't see this article getting a lot of traction here on HN. I'm certain most of us have good friends and colleagues here in the US on an H1B Visa; I'm equally certain most of us have seen and experienced the abuse of the system. H1B's stated purpose is "Specialty Occupation"s. A lot of these Visas are being used to bring in workers for very generic IT helpdesk jobs. There's still many that are granted for exceptional talents in the field of Information Technology and Computer Science, but there's also a large number granted to companies that are primarily outsourcers, whose appeal is not specialization but simply being cheap. It's been suggested many times on HN that the regulations on H1Bs be changed to make it a bidding process - Only bring over applicants who are being paid the most. I'm not sure I agree or disagree, but I absolutely think more careful scrutiny of what's considered a "Specialist Occupation" is a step that's reasonable within the current regulations. There's a lot of complaints of Fraud and Abuse related to the program that are also being addressed with more careful scrutiny.
- User23 8y ago
  If the H-1B statutes were enforced as written then the total number of applicants accepted each year would comfortably fit in a large conference room.
  - mavelikara 8y ago
    Please explain why you think so.
    - bigcostooge 8y ago
      I’m not the poster, but I’ve worked with literally hundreds of H1B workers directly, and while some were ~decent developers, the majority were not. Even the decent developers had no special skills that would qualify them for an H1b visa, however. With a 0% rate of qualified H1b recipients in my own experience, I can imagine that the “conference room” statement would be true.
      - mavelikara 8y ago
screenbeam 8y ago
Eric Weinstein has some thoughts on this: https://mobile.twitter.com/EricRWeinstein/status/942081705615155200 https://mobile.twitter.com/EricRWeinstein/status/94208170561... Read the paper he links to there.
- User23 8y ago
  The decline in trust in "experts" isn't because people are stupid, it's because even uneducated Americans are actually pretty smart, more than smart enough to know when they're being lied to. This applies to people on both sides of the issues, it's just that the people who prefer the liars' side pretend not to notice the lying since they perceive it as beneficial to their interests.
  - fooker 8y ago
    >even uneducated Americans are actually pretty smart, more than smart enough to know when they're being lied to. How do you explain the enormous viewership of Fox news?
    - User23 8y ago
      Their competition is incompetent.
      - fooker 8y ago
        How is their competition relevant for determining whether they are lying?
        User23 8y ago
        That’s a different question. I’m not a mind reader so I have no idea if they are lying or just incorrect when they say things that aren’t true.
grad_ml 8y ago
From the article a)approximately 80% of full-time graduate students in computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are international students. b)Economists Giovanni Peri, Kevin Shih and Chad Sparber notes “A 1 percentage point increase in the foreign STEM share of a city’s total employment increased the wage growth of native college-educated labor by about 7–8 percentage points and the wage growth of non-college-educated natives by 3–4 percentage points.”
- User23 8y ago
  So in the limit case where 100% of the STEM employment is foreign the average wages of native workers will be 220% higher than they are now? What mechanism will achieve this remarkable result?
  - earloflexus 8y ago
    STEMs be eating, shopping, getting hair cuts, and what not.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > b)Economists Giovanni Peri, Kevin Shih and Chad Sparber notes “A 1 percentage point increase in the foreign STEM share of a city’s total employment increased the wage growth of native college-educated labor by about 7–8 percentage points and the wage growth of non-college-educated natives by 3–4 percentage points.” I don't doubt this correlation, but I do doubt that the relationship is causal in the direction suggested. More likely higher less supply of naive work to meet the needs of local industry -> both higher native wages and greater effort toward and eligibility for visa sponsorship for foreign workers.
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  > approximately 80% of full-time graduate students in computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are international students. Just 80? LOL, that sounds low to me. I did an MSCS at a U.S. university in 2005, and I was one of two U.S. citizens in the entire _program_. I took multiple courses where I was the only U.S.-born person in the room, including the professor.
crazy_monkey 8y ago
I hope people rejected from H1-B will become leaders in STEM in their home countries. IMHO, it is highly questionable whether everyone desiring to work in the US is good for humanity (i.e., most of the world's population).
tananaev 8y ago
My understanding was that all (or most) applications are processed in 4th quarter of a fiscal year. That's because lottery is done in April (with results in May/June). So, comparing quarters of the same year make zero sense to me. Am I missing or misunderstanding something?
bumblebritches5 8y ago
THANK. GOD.
NTDF9 8y ago
I know a lot of Americans think that most H-1B are cheap labor or incompetent engineers. There is some truth to it but hear the other side out. The way H-1B is implemented, it does not distinguish a person with PhDin Computer Science from Stanford from someone who did bachelors in Computer Science from Univ of Timbuktoo. This is the only visa for a top student can get to continue to work in the United States. Over many years, this caused a lot of grief with body shops abusing these visas. The new administration came in and appointed a bunch of racists to head USCIS, who started denying H-1B indiscriminately. Guess who are the guys getting kicked out now? Yes, the same Stanford graduates (or other top university graduates) that America taught for many years. The process also discounts non-linearity of life. A student produced by top American universities is likely a good engineer. If they've worked in top Silicon valley companies for many years, they've gained practical knowledge that many other countries would kill to have. These 28-45 year old people are typically startup founders, top engineers, execs and folks willing to take chances. The US unceremoniously chooses to kick them out brashly? Guess which jobs are going with them? Also, the real mess of H-1B is the green card process of USA. There are so so so many people on periodic H-1B extensions for 10 years, 15 years etc. These guys have been in the US for the best periods of their lives and should be naturalized. But because of the patchwork laws of US immigration, don't have green cards. With the over zealous deportation machine (aka USCIS) in operation now, these folks are being kicked out with their spouses and kids. The US under current administration has the world completely backward. If they ever genuinely had the intent to fix the immigration process (which I suspect they don't), they've chosen the worst possible way.
__sr__ 8y ago
Broadly speaking, there are two types of H1B applicants[1]: 1. Applicants being hired directly by US companies like Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc. These applicants have either worked for a while at one of their offshore subsidiaries or were hired directly after a thorough interview process. They are typically paid on par with their US counterparts. These applicants are usually very good at what they do — regardless of their educational background — which is why they were hired in the first place. 2. Applicants working for outsourcing companies who are being sent to work for their clients. Unfortunately, not all of them are good and are hired mostly to reduce costs. Most of the stereotypical immigrant engineers fall in the second category. A lot of them moved to the US in late 1990s and throughout the 2000s. Companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple etc. don’t typically hire incompetent people — barring a few exceptions which may have slipped through the cracks. Unfortunately, the second category of applicants give all of them a bad name. I don’t know exactly how this can be solved completely. Perhaps H1Bs should be allowed to stay in the country after quitting their jobs for a certain period of time so they can look for another one — eliminating low employee mobility? Perhaps the minimum H1B wages should be increased — eliminating the low cost H1Bs? Perhaps there should be additional scrutiny for applicants going to work for a third party client? Perhaps there should be subcategories of H1B with different limits for the two types of applicants? Perhaps a combination? In any case, treating the two categories as one is probably not a great idea. [1] I know I am generalizing here and that the world is not black and white and that there are exceptions. But in my experience, these are the broad categories.
- dmode 8y ago
  Both me and my wife fall in category 1, but were unceremoniously denied H1 visa extensions this year. Both of us have Master's degree in the US. As you would note from other comments in this thread, there is a lot of misunderstanding about H1B among Americans. For most people H1B = cheap, which is grossly incorrect
  - __sr__ 8y ago
    > For most people H1B = cheap, which is grossly incorrect >> In any case, treating the two categories as one is probably not a great idea. That is exactly what I said.
known 8y ago
More Indian H-1B applicants are rejected since https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indians-to-hire-others-indians-and-its-killing-diversity/ https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indi... and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/world/asia/12iht-letter12.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/world/asia/12iht-letter12....
mechwarrior 8y ago
I'm sure there is a good reason this idea wouldn't work, hoping someone can help poke holes in it: Why not set a number of H1B visas (say keep the current of 85k), then rather than do a lottery or check qualifications, simply rank salaries offered to applicants (or total yearly compensation) and let the people with the highest offers get the visas. This way wages won't be depressed, and companies with labor needs they are truly unable to fulfill with traditional methods will get all the people they need. Viewing money as a crude measure of qualification it seems this would be the most fair method. Also would be the best for the American worker since it would prevent low cost H1B applicants from lowering local wages.

67 points by seshagiric 8y ago

e9 8y ago

India has more applicants than all other countries combined times 2.5 I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are fraud and legitimately rejected https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2007-2017-trend-tables.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...

User23 8y ago
Having worked with H-1B "principal engineers" who can't write a bash script, I'm thinking yes, this is true.
- bumblebritches5 8y ago
  Is your company hiring? Edit: Americans, I mean.
- __sr__ 8y ago
  People who work primarily on Windows have trouble writing bash scripts. That’s not exactly surprising.
  - User23 8y ago
    This was at a Linux shop.
    - __sr__ 8y ago
      That was meant as a joke. While I agree that there are many incompetent people who have abused H1B and other such systems, I prefer to judge people on their individual merits and avoid stereotyping. I have worked with both the extremes. See my longer response to the OP
      - User23 8y ago
        I've never worked with a native employee with this particular defect for any appreciable length of time. They always get let go. The H-1Bs however, in my experience, don't. Why might that be?
        __sr__ 8y ago
        > The H-1Bs however, in my experience, don't. Why might that be? That is strange. In my experience, H1Bs are let go as quickly as natives if they are not competent. Of course, it could simply be a matter of the type of companies we have worked with. Again, see my (longer) response to the OP. I have mostly worked with Type 1 people I described there and have been fortunate enough to mostly avoid the Type 2. That said, I’ve worked with both extremes. EDIT: When I say I’ve worked with both the extremes, I mean I have worked with both highly skilled and totally incompetent foreigners as well as natives. EDIT 2: I’ve also worked with a third category — highly intelligent people (PhD level) who are more interested in spreading their intelligence (i.e. showing off) than getting actual work done. Unfortunately, I haven’t met the other extreme in this case. :-)
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        mavelikara 8y ago
        > I've never worked with a native employee with this particular defect for any appreciable length of time Spending an evening reading stories reported at thedailywtf.com will help dispel this.
        kamaal 8y ago
        >>The H-1Bs however, in my experience, don't. Why might that be? When given the opportunity, the learn and perform. Also they work for whatever salary you offer, do not complain, do overtime and weekends whenever demand and most importantly do not complain. Learning to write bash scripts isn't that hard. Finding people grateful enough for the opportunity offered, who work to make you and them win is hard.
- HNNewer 8y ago
  this. I've worked with C++ "senior" engineers who weren't understanding compiler errors because they've written 2 main() [!!!] functions in code
  - __sr__ 8y ago
    So how exactly were they doing their job? Didn’t their manager have anything to say about the non-delivery of the project?
    - HNNewer 8y ago
      in fact, after that huge error and many other related to his code, he didn't get any contract renewal and was kicked out. I don't blame him because of his roots, but I've seen a common pattern in faking skills so much that they get a job, but failing after a short period, discovering the reality

GauntletWizard 8y ago

Somehow, I don't see this article getting a lot of traction here on HN. I'm certain most of us have good friends and colleagues here in the US on an H1B Visa; I'm equally certain most of us have seen and experienced the abuse of the system. H1B's stated purpose is "Specialty Occupation"s. A lot of these Visas are being used to bring in workers for very generic IT helpdesk jobs. There's still many that are granted for exceptional talents in the field of Information Technology and Computer Science, but there's also a large number granted to companies that are primarily outsourcers, whose appeal is not specialization but simply being cheap. It's been suggested many times on HN that the regulations on H1Bs be changed to make it a bidding process - Only bring over applicants who are being paid the most. I'm not sure I agree or disagree, but I absolutely think more careful scrutiny of what's considered a "Specialist Occupation" is a step that's reasonable within the current regulations. There's a lot of complaints of Fraud and Abuse related to the program that are also being addressed with more careful scrutiny.

User23 8y ago
If the H-1B statutes were enforced as written then the total number of applicants accepted each year would comfortably fit in a large conference room.
- mavelikara 8y ago
  Please explain why you think so.
  - bigcostooge 8y ago
    I’m not the poster, but I’ve worked with literally hundreds of H1B workers directly, and while some were ~decent developers, the majority were not. Even the decent developers had no special skills that would qualify them for an H1b visa, however. With a 0% rate of qualified H1b recipients in my own experience, I can imagine that the “conference room” statement would be true.
    - mavelikara 8y ago

screenbeam 8y ago

Eric Weinstein has some thoughts on this: https://mobile.twitter.com/EricRWeinstein/status/942081705615155200 https://mobile.twitter.com/EricRWeinstein/status/94208170561... Read the paper he links to there.

User23 8y ago
The decline in trust in "experts" isn't because people are stupid, it's because even uneducated Americans are actually pretty smart, more than smart enough to know when they're being lied to. This applies to people on both sides of the issues, it's just that the people who prefer the liars' side pretend not to notice the lying since they perceive it as beneficial to their interests.
- fooker 8y ago
  >even uneducated Americans are actually pretty smart, more than smart enough to know when they're being lied to. How do you explain the enormous viewership of Fox news?
  - User23 8y ago
    Their competition is incompetent.
    - fooker 8y ago
      How is their competition relevant for determining whether they are lying?
      - User23 8y ago
        That’s a different question. I’m not a mind reader so I have no idea if they are lying or just incorrect when they say things that aren’t true.

grad_ml 8y ago

From the article a)approximately 80% of full-time graduate students in computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are international students. b)Economists Giovanni Peri, Kevin Shih and Chad Sparber notes “A 1 percentage point increase in the foreign STEM share of a city’s total employment increased the wage growth of native college-educated labor by about 7–8 percentage points and the wage growth of non-college-educated natives by 3–4 percentage points.”

User23 8y ago
So in the limit case where 100% of the STEM employment is foreign the average wages of native workers will be 220% higher than they are now? What mechanism will achieve this remarkable result?
- earloflexus 8y ago
  STEMs be eating, shopping, getting hair cuts, and what not.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> b)Economists Giovanni Peri, Kevin Shih and Chad Sparber notes “A 1 percentage point increase in the foreign STEM share of a city’s total employment increased the wage growth of native college-educated labor by about 7–8 percentage points and the wage growth of non-college-educated natives by 3–4 percentage points.” I don't doubt this correlation, but I do doubt that the relationship is causal in the direction suggested. More likely higher less supply of naive work to meet the needs of local industry -> both higher native wages and greater effort toward and eligibility for visa sponsorship for foreign workers.
commandlinefan 8y ago
> approximately 80% of full-time graduate students in computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are international students. Just 80? LOL, that sounds low to me. I did an MSCS at a U.S. university in 2005, and I was one of two U.S. citizens in the entire _program_. I took multiple courses where I was the only U.S.-born person in the room, including the professor.

crazy_monkey 8y ago

I hope people rejected from H1-B will become leaders in STEM in their home countries. IMHO, it is highly questionable whether everyone desiring to work in the US is good for humanity (i.e., most of the world's population).

tananaev 8y ago

My understanding was that all (or most) applications are processed in 4th quarter of a fiscal year. That's because lottery is done in April (with results in May/June). So, comparing quarters of the same year make zero sense to me. Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

bumblebritches5 8y ago

THANK. GOD.

NTDF9 8y ago

I know a lot of Americans think that most H-1B are cheap labor or incompetent engineers. There is some truth to it but hear the other side out. The way H-1B is implemented, it does not distinguish a person with PhDin Computer Science from Stanford from someone who did bachelors in Computer Science from Univ of Timbuktoo. This is the only visa for a top student can get to continue to work in the United States. Over many years, this caused a lot of grief with body shops abusing these visas. The new administration came in and appointed a bunch of racists to head USCIS, who started denying H-1B indiscriminately. Guess who are the guys getting kicked out now? Yes, the same Stanford graduates (or other top university graduates) that America taught for many years. The process also discounts non-linearity of life. A student produced by top American universities is likely a good engineer. If they've worked in top Silicon valley companies for many years, they've gained practical knowledge that many other countries would kill to have. These 28-45 year old people are typically startup founders, top engineers, execs and folks willing to take chances. The US unceremoniously chooses to kick them out brashly? Guess which jobs are going with them? Also, the real mess of H-1B is the green card process of USA. There are so so so many people on periodic H-1B extensions for 10 years, 15 years etc. These guys have been in the US for the best periods of their lives and should be naturalized. But because of the patchwork laws of US immigration, don't have green cards. With the over zealous deportation machine (aka USCIS) in operation now, these folks are being kicked out with their spouses and kids. The US under current administration has the world completely backward. If they ever genuinely had the intent to fix the immigration process (which I suspect they don't), they've chosen the worst possible way.

__sr__ 8y ago

Broadly speaking, there are two types of H1B applicants[1]: 1. Applicants being hired directly by US companies like Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc. These applicants have either worked for a while at one of their offshore subsidiaries or were hired directly after a thorough interview process. They are typically paid on par with their US counterparts. These applicants are usually very good at what they do — regardless of their educational background — which is why they were hired in the first place. 2. Applicants working for outsourcing companies who are being sent to work for their clients. Unfortunately, not all of them are good and are hired mostly to reduce costs. Most of the stereotypical immigrant engineers fall in the second category. A lot of them moved to the US in late 1990s and throughout the 2000s. Companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple etc. don’t typically hire incompetent people — barring a few exceptions which may have slipped through the cracks. Unfortunately, the second category of applicants give all of them a bad name. I don’t know exactly how this can be solved completely. Perhaps H1Bs should be allowed to stay in the country after quitting their jobs for a certain period of time so they can look for another one — eliminating low employee mobility? Perhaps the minimum H1B wages should be increased — eliminating the low cost H1Bs? Perhaps there should be additional scrutiny for applicants going to work for a third party client? Perhaps there should be subcategories of H1B with different limits for the two types of applicants? Perhaps a combination? In any case, treating the two categories as one is probably not a great idea. [1] I know I am generalizing here and that the world is not black and white and that there are exceptions. But in my experience, these are the broad categories.

dmode 8y ago
Both me and my wife fall in category 1, but were unceremoniously denied H1 visa extensions this year. Both of us have Master's degree in the US. As you would note from other comments in this thread, there is a lot of misunderstanding about H1B among Americans. For most people H1B = cheap, which is grossly incorrect
- __sr__ 8y ago
  > For most people H1B = cheap, which is grossly incorrect >> In any case, treating the two categories as one is probably not a great idea. That is exactly what I said.

known 8y ago

More Indian H-1B applicants are rejected since https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indians-to-hire-others-indians-and-its-killing-diversity/ https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indi... and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/world/asia/12iht-letter12.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/world/asia/12iht-letter12....

mechwarrior 8y ago

I'm sure there is a good reason this idea wouldn't work, hoping someone can help poke holes in it: Why not set a number of H1B visas (say keep the current of 85k), then rather than do a lottery or check qualifications, simply rank salaries offered to applicants (or total yearly compensation) and let the people with the highest offers get the visas. This way wages won't be depressed, and companies with labor needs they are truly unable to fulfill with traditional methods will get all the people they need. Viewing money as a crude measure of qualification it seems this would be the most fair method. Also would be the best for the American worker since it would prevent low cost H1B applicants from lowering local wages.