5 ms·

While the end-of-life, security issues angle is a perfectly valid one I’m surprised this isn’t about accessibility. I would imagine government websites should

While the end-of-life, security issues angle is a perfectly valid one I’m surprised this isn’t about accessibility. I would imagine government websites should provide information in an accessible way which Flash definitely isn’t. The recent HN post about the UK government moving from PDF to HTML[0] springs to mind as an example of a move in the right direction but given that it took a lawsuit to make laws publicly and freely accessible I think that isn’t a goal in US government somehow. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17541045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17541045

walrus01 8y ago
Seconding this, since Flash is incompatible with most screen reading software used by the visually impaired, I think the legal requirements should be obvious.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
Two notes, though I doubt anyone working on government pages will actually read them: 1) PDF -> HTML improves accessibility. HTML -> content rendered by JS via an SPA framework is worse than PDF, and approaches Flash. Please don't do that. 2) Think of the robots :). One of the problem of government data is that while you can usually find the scanned PDF or an XLS file with the data you're looking for, it's completely useless for automated processing. Making public data easier for machines to read enables citizens to build interesting tools on top of them.
- walrus01 8y ago
  Non-technical / ignorant people are also highly likely to put blobs of text content into PDFs as raster images, which pretty much makes them impossible to search/index or deal with for visually impaired persons' software assistance tools. I have seen too many government PDFs that would be impossible to understand if I were visually impaired.
- KyeRussell 8y ago
  I'd usually be right beside anyone wanting to begin JavaScript bashing but it feels like you are conflating two issues. Whilst the (for lack of a better term) JavaScript / SPA ecosystem encourages (especially to novices) people to do things in the Wrong Way, I wouldn't say that an SPA is inherently less accessible, and I definitely wouldn't say that it's less accessible than a PDF. I—like I'm sure the rest of HN—have experienced many a terrible SPA, but from my JavaScript dabbling it's becoming more and more apparent that it's due to bad developers more than anything else.
  - j16sdiz 8y ago
    I will attribute this to the ignorant of management. The local government here mandated all website to have w3c AA grade accessibility. But all the management fellow it by the letter of standard. None of them provide us the time or resource to do accessibility testing. They explain away the accessibility issues raised by the concerned groups. So, yes plain html is better. They have a higher chance works without any prior testing
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > I'd usually be right beside anyone wanting to begin JavaScript bashing but it feels like you are conflating two issues. I'm not really bashing JavaScript per se, I'm bashing modern web development ecosystem. Sure, you can use JS and modern SPA frameworks to build lean, accessible, progressively-enhanced pages. But that's not the default. That is not what tutorials will encourage you to do. That is not what those tools were designed to facilitate. And your typical developer will absolutely follow trends and "industry standard" in the technologies they use. It's kind of like with bashing PowerPoint. To be completely honest, PowerPoint is a very powerful tool that can help you deliver amazing presentations if you know how to use it for that goal. Most people don't, and the defaults of PowerPoint encourage bad style - hence people bash the tool.
- sgift 8y ago
  > 1) PDF -> HTML improves accessibility. Out of curiosity: Does that include PDF/A or is that one okay for accessibility?
Bucephalus355 8y ago
Sometimes lawsuits are like a “4th branch of government”. It forces legal compliance (or at least highly encouraged) so in some ways it’s not that different from the typical role of government. Politically, it can be easier for politicians to let lawsuits do the work for them instead of gaining enemies by going after people (which lawyers get instead). You also hear the media get called “the 4th branch” from time to time.
- thephyber 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Sometimes lawsuits are like a “4th branch of government”. Except that they are just the context in which the Judicial branch acts, so it doesn't make sense to call them a different branch.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    I've seen a model described in which lawsuits are used to exercise executive power while bypassing the judiciary. I have no opinion on how prevalent this is: 1. An agency would like to make a rule, but that rule would exceed their authority. 2. After some quiet discussion, an NGO which is friendly with the agency sues them for not already enforcing the rule. 3. The agency settles the lawsuit, and the terms of settlement require them to enforce the rule. This bypasses inquiry into whether they're allowed to do so. If something like this happened, I'd be pretty comfortable describing it as a "4th branch of government" or similar.
    - squirrelicus 8y ago
      I would love to see an example of this.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
duskwuff 8y ago
Another aspect I'm surprised isn't being discussed is mobile. Many people in the US use a mobile phone or tablet as their primary computing device. Flash is not available on mobile devices -- using Flash on a web site effectively restricts that content to people who have access to a desktop computer.

walrus01 8y ago

Seconding this, since Flash is incompatible with most screen reading software used by the visually impaired, I think the legal requirements should be obvious.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

Two notes, though I doubt anyone working on government pages will actually read them: 1) PDF -> HTML improves accessibility. HTML -> content rendered by JS via an SPA framework is worse than PDF, and approaches Flash. Please don't do that. 2) Think of the robots :). One of the problem of government data is that while you can usually find the scanned PDF or an XLS file with the data you're looking for, it's completely useless for automated processing. Making public data easier for machines to read enables citizens to build interesting tools on top of them.

walrus01 8y ago
Non-technical / ignorant people are also highly likely to put blobs of text content into PDFs as raster images, which pretty much makes them impossible to search/index or deal with for visually impaired persons' software assistance tools. I have seen too many government PDFs that would be impossible to understand if I were visually impaired.
KyeRussell 8y ago
I'd usually be right beside anyone wanting to begin JavaScript bashing but it feels like you are conflating two issues. Whilst the (for lack of a better term) JavaScript / SPA ecosystem encourages (especially to novices) people to do things in the Wrong Way, I wouldn't say that an SPA is inherently less accessible, and I definitely wouldn't say that it's less accessible than a PDF. I—like I'm sure the rest of HN—have experienced many a terrible SPA, but from my JavaScript dabbling it's becoming more and more apparent that it's due to bad developers more than anything else.
- j16sdiz 8y ago
  I will attribute this to the ignorant of management. The local government here mandated all website to have w3c AA grade accessibility. But all the management fellow it by the letter of standard. None of them provide us the time or resource to do accessibility testing. They explain away the accessibility issues raised by the concerned groups. So, yes plain html is better. They have a higher chance works without any prior testing
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > I'd usually be right beside anyone wanting to begin JavaScript bashing but it feels like you are conflating two issues. I'm not really bashing JavaScript per se, I'm bashing modern web development ecosystem. Sure, you can use JS and modern SPA frameworks to build lean, accessible, progressively-enhanced pages. But that's not the default. That is not what tutorials will encourage you to do. That is not what those tools were designed to facilitate. And your typical developer will absolutely follow trends and "industry standard" in the technologies they use. It's kind of like with bashing PowerPoint. To be completely honest, PowerPoint is a very powerful tool that can help you deliver amazing presentations if you know how to use it for that goal. Most people don't, and the defaults of PowerPoint encourage bad style - hence people bash the tool.
sgift 8y ago
> 1) PDF -> HTML improves accessibility. Out of curiosity: Does that include PDF/A or is that one okay for accessibility?

Bucephalus355 8y ago

Sometimes lawsuits are like a “4th branch of government”. It forces legal compliance (or at least highly encouraged) so in some ways it’s not that different from the typical role of government. Politically, it can be easier for politicians to let lawsuits do the work for them instead of gaining enemies by going after people (which lawyers get instead). You also hear the media get called “the 4th branch” from time to time.

thephyber 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Sometimes lawsuits are like a “4th branch of government”. Except that they are just the context in which the Judicial branch acts, so it doesn't make sense to call them a different branch.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  I've seen a model described in which lawsuits are used to exercise executive power while bypassing the judiciary. I have no opinion on how prevalent this is: 1. An agency would like to make a rule, but that rule would exceed their authority. 2. After some quiet discussion, an NGO which is friendly with the agency sues them for not already enforcing the rule. 3. The agency settles the lawsuit, and the terms of settlement require them to enforce the rule. This bypasses inquiry into whether they're allowed to do so. If something like this happened, I'd be pretty comfortable describing it as a "4th branch of government" or similar.
  - squirrelicus 8y ago
    I would love to see an example of this.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

duskwuff 8y ago

Another aspect I'm surprised isn't being discussed is mobile. Many people in the US use a mobile phone or tablet as their primary computing device. Flash is not available on mobile devices -- using Flash on a web site effectively restricts that content to people who have access to a desktop computer.